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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#191

Post by listenallyall »

armchairhacker wrote: post #146
void_mint wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

> conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks.

Minorities (POC, Latinx) have the lowest vaccination rates. Do these groups generally lean conservative?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health...

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#192

Post by nicoburns »

midasuni wrote: post #130
armchairhacker wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know some conservative, religious, pro-Trump communities were very focused on stopping the spread of covid and locking down. It wasn’t a partisan issue, it was common knowledge that covid-19 made people sick and we had to stop it. Until Donald Trump decided to say covid-19 is a hoax and preventative measures are unnecessary. Presumably because he‘s so contrarian that anything the Democrats supported he opposed a…

It’s interesting. Her run the U.K. vaccine take up amongst older demographics is nearly 100%, and the left/right split has major age differences. The right and old are massively pro vaccines because their man in government (Johnson) slapped a flag on it and said it was great. If Corbyn had won in 2019 (from a higher youth turnout and lower elder turnout), there’s no way the press or the elder demographics would be so…

I don't think so. Healthcare just isn't a politicised issue in the UK in the same way as it is in the US. If Corbyn had won you'd probably have seen a lot of objections to the massive public spending on furlough schemes and the like, but pretty much everyone in mainstream UK politics is onboard with vaccines. And there's much less of a tendency to pick a fight for the sake of picking a fight here.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#193

Post by justicezyx »

angelzen wrote: post #162
glitchc wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what it really brings to light (at least for me) is the incompetence of the CCP in the matter. I have no qualms about China conducting research in this regard, other countries are doing it too and we would be naive to think otherwise. However, if it is proven to be true that gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan laboratory, it highlights the sheer stupidity of the government in thinking t…

Zing! This is how communist regimes work in practice: * Utter incompetency. Got to promote the 'working class' in positions of authority across the board regardless of actual qualifications. Got to follow ideological prescriptions to a T regardless of real-world outcomes. * Extreme message control. The communist society is perfect, except for those horrible people that refuse to support the party 100%. And also movin…

> communist regimes

Not sure how this comes into the question.

There has not been a communist regime on earth, according to Karl Marx's definition.

And China is a capitalism country... Ask any mentally stable US citizen visiting China, if they tell you that China is in any bit less capitalism than USA, they probably are trying not to offend your American Exceptionalism.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#194

Post by __john »

justicezyx wrote: post #188
TheCowboy wrote: post #109

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning…

> China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. Let's make that mistake and blackout in the scale. Let's compare China's mistake and blackout against US, the closest nation in population and economy scale. Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout...

I don't understand your comment,

> Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout...

What mistake and blackout did the US make?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#195

Post by mensetmanusman »

wilsonfiifi wrote: post #8

Does it even matter any more? From where I stand Covid-19 might have been much less devastating globally if it had been treated seriously in the early days. In fact, based on the initial footage from Wuhan, countries should have adopted more stringent protocols when they repatriated their nationals, i.e. quarantine on arrival etc... If in doubt throw everything including the kitchen sink at just to be sure. But it is…

That would be true had COVID not also spread through animals and pets. We can’t control the animal response to a pandemic…

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#196

Post by justicezyx »

__john wrote: post #194
justicezyx wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. Let's make that mistake and blackout in the scale. Let's compare China's mistake and blackout against US, the closest nation in population and economy scale. Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout...

I don't understand your comment, > Well, now we see that China's mistake and blackout are indeed less damaging then US' mistake and blackout... What mistake and blackout did the US make?

https://doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-t...

https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavir...

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#197

Post by int_19h »

titzer wrote: post #172
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#198

Post by int_19h »

armchairhacker wrote: post #146
void_mint wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

There's a reason why this kind of content is going to dominate any online discussion platform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#199

Post by int_19h »

eunos wrote: post #139
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. Surprising how easy it is to fracture American society then.

I don't think there's such a thing as an "American society" anymore. Or, for that matter, an "American nation".

I remember back in 2016, when all the Trump/Putin brouhaha first started making rounds, one staunch right-winger whom I know said something along the lines of, "if Putin helps him hang all our traitors and clean the trash out like he did in Russia, I'm all for it".

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#200

Post by TheBlight »

civilized wrote: post #180
titzer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

A lot of people seem fundamentally ridiculous these days. Silly, frivolous, unserious, out of touch with reality. They should know better, and they don't care that they should know better. They're motivated by something else. I don't know if that's a new thing or not, but that's how it has seemed to me during this pandemic. Quite a few people have gone without an easy, safe, miraculously effective vaccine - a marvel…

I don't think you have a complete understanding of the larger opposing point of view that you think you do. What you're regurgitating is a media enhanced narrative. You are upset with a caricature.
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