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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#121

Post by [deleted] »

birken wrote: post #105
void_mint wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. We're living in very different worlds I guess.

Yes, don't you remember the early days of the pandemic when Donald Trump was very pro-mask, including regularly wearing a mask himself, and then only when the liberal started moralizing he turned anti-mask?

[deleted]

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#122

Post by armchairhacker »

void_mint wrote: post #100
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. We're living in very different worlds I guess.

I do know some conservative, religious, pro-Trump communities were very focused on stopping the spread of covid and locking down. It wasn’t a partisan issue, it was common knowledge that covid-19 made people sick and we had to stop it.

Until Donald Trump decided to say covid-19 is a hoax and preventative measures are unnecessary. Presumably because he‘s so contrarian that anything the Democrats supported he opposed and vice versa. It was a dumb move and many (including me) believe it cost him the election, if he decided to support lockdowns I really think he would’ve won by a long shot.

And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#123

Post by advael »

op00to wrote: post #118
birken wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, don't you remember the early days of the pandemic when Donald Trump was very pro-mask, including regularly wearing a mask himself, and then only when the liberal started moralizing he turned anti-mask?

Ex-president, twice impeached Trump on April 3, 2020 at the White House: “The C.D.C. is advising the use of nonmedical cloth face covering as an additional voluntary public health measure. So it’s voluntary. You don’t have to do it. They suggested for a period of time, but this is voluntary. I don’t think I’m going to be doing it.” “I just don’t want to be doing — I don’t know, somehow sitting in the Oval Office behi…

I think they were being facetious. Yes, mask compliance was probably a bad example, because this was politicized from both sides pretty much right away. I think the general point stands though

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#124

Post by glitchc »

TheCowboy wrote: post #109

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning…

I think what it really brings to light (at least for me) is the incompetence of the CCP in the matter.

I have no qualms about China conducting research in this regard, other countries are doing it too and we would be naive to think otherwise. However, if it is proven to be true that gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan laboratory, it highlights the sheer stupidity of the government in thinking they could build a military bio-weapons research laboratory in the heart of a major city center. Western nations that do have such facilities place them far away from high-density urban populations, precisely as a last-ditch measure to mitigate the impact of an (eventual) breach.

It's worse for the CCP if it boils down to incompetence rather than malice. Becoming a laughingstock of the world and not being taken seriously is perhaps their deepest fear.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#125

Post by ianleeclark »

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect

I've long thought the best way of reaching 100% vaccination in the US was to have competing Democrat and Republican vaccines. Democrats could don a dashiki and say one thing while Republicans could put up a crack smoking pillow salesman to say another.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#126

Post by noptd »

motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

>Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, and it's the least impactful detail of what has happened

This is a nonsensical argument for reasons ISL pointed out in their reply (among others), and framing the issue as a question of origin OR is a false dichotomy - they are all important questions worth seeking answers to and will inform different aspects of how w respond to, and ideally prevent, future pandemics.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#127

Post by noptd »

stormbrew wrote: post #120
tomohawk wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worldwide community is large. We can do many things all at the same time. Investigating the source is not a distraction. We now have documentary evidence that Fauci authorized money to be channeled through various organizations to labs in Wuhan. These documents also link people involved with this activity to the very same people who assured us through letters to a highly respected journal that the lab leak theory…

> It's unlikely that the people investigating will be the same ones developing new drugs or treatments for covid. Maybe not, but maybe they should instead be investigating how policy failed us so catastrophically around the world after it escaped its original area. When the world obsesses over its origin, it seems to be blatant deflection over failures at home.

The parent already addressed this concern:

>The worldwide community is large. We can do many things all at the same time. Investigating the source is not a distraction.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#128

Post by cwp »

This is stupid. You can't debate facts. Either SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, or it didn't. Unless somebody comes forward to say, "Yeah, I tore my glove while transporting some test tubes and I got sick two days later," we're never going to know for sure.

The only sensible thing to do is assume that it's at least possible that it was a lab leak and reevaluate the risk-benefit tradeoff of this type of research. That is a debate worth having. The rest is just posturing.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#129

Post by noptd »

PicassoCTs wrote: post #28

Liaison for the Wuhan Virology Institute and later WHO Investigator into his own lab, in his own words, 1 year pre Covid outbreak : https://youtu.be/IdYDL_RK--w?t=1773 But honestly, it does not matter. What matters is that there is a whole culture who allows shutting down narratives, as it pleases for whatever failed reflexes control it. That culture has to go. Right, Left and center.

>But honestly, it does not matter. What matters is that there is a whole culture who allows shutting down narratives, as it pleases for whatever failed reflexes control it.

I disagree - they both matter.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#130

Post by midasuni »

armchairhacker wrote: post #122
void_mint wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. We're living in very different worlds I guess.

I do know some conservative, religious, pro-Trump communities were very focused on stopping the spread of covid and locking down. It wasn’t a partisan issue, it was common knowledge that covid-19 made people sick and we had to stop it. Until Donald Trump decided to say covid-19 is a hoax and preventative measures are unnecessary. Presumably because he‘s so contrarian that anything the Democrats supported he opposed a…

It’s interesting. Her run the U.K. vaccine take up amongst older demographics is nearly 100%, and the left/right split has major age differences. The right and old are massively pro vaccines because their man in government (Johnson) slapped a flag on it and said it was great.

If Corbyn had won in 2019 (from a higher youth turnout and lower elder turnout), there’s no way the press or the elder demographics would be so accepting, and the country would be polarised with covid as a pivot.

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