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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#111

Post by void_mint »

birken wrote: post #105
void_mint wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. We're living in very different worlds I guess.

Yes, don't you remember the early days of the pandemic when Donald Trump was very pro-mask, including regularly wearing a mask himself, and then only when the liberal started moralizing he turned anti-mask?

Are we talking about political figures or the people that follow them? The poster I'm responding to is talking about the latter.

edit Someone already pointed out that this is an obvious biased misinformation post.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#112

Post by tomohawk »

If you want an objective and open and transparent debate, then a good place to start would be to stop censoring it.

Here's but one of many cases.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/sep/12/they-are-co...

You can't arrive at the truth of a matter by only listening to those with enough power to shut down any countervailing opinions.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#113

Post by hn8788 »

zionic wrote: post #93
playcache wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When will the general public stop seeing conspiracy theories as imaginary tales? Covid leaked from a lab is viable. Bill Gates injecting microchips into everyone in order to invoke a new global cabal I would argue is firmly in the imaginary tale bracket.

I monitor conspiracy stuff heavily and I never saw anyone there claim there were microchips in the vaccines. I did however see a bunch of comments in “mainstream” sections mocking a conspiracy I never saw support for.

My wife's cousin certainly believes it. But even in the small southern town she lives in that is full of people who think covid is made up, everyone else else thinks she's crazy for thinking the vaccines have microchips in them.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#114

Post by secondcoming »

motohagiography wrote: post #107
ISL wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The origin matters for two major reasons: 1) So we can learn and mitigate the risks of something similar happening again. and 2) In the event that the virus was leaked from a laboratory, the world would like to send the lab a small invoice for costs incurred and damages.

So literally, nothing different. Labs are all hypersensitive about their processes right now, so they're doing 1) already, and the recipient of that invoice is the US NIH, or the CCP, neither of whom have either the willingness or ability to pay. It's window dressing, and I'm becoming even more suspicious that the disease origin is just another managed narrative, as everybody who believes it came from a lab believed…

People outside of America are also interested in whether this virus came from some guy's bat dinner, or a bio-warfare lab.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#115

Post by boulos »

TheCowboy wrote: post #109

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning…

> I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak.

Huh. I think most people find that if something "happens to you" it's less your fault than if you "made it happen". If your house burns down from a gas line explosion nearby, that's bad luck for you. If it burns down because you had a pile of paper next to your stove while operating it, that's on you.

How it was handled after the fact is probably similar (though again, if it was your own source, then it probably meant you had even earlier warning), but I believe it's mostly down to "things that happen to you versus things you cause".

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#116

Post by secondcoming »

mnd999 wrote: post #26
chrisco255 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clearly too virulent to contain as is evident nearly 2 years later. Yes it matters. If China (and other orgs) are responsible they should be held criminally and civilly liable. Millions have died on account of what appears to have been reckless and dangerous gain of function research. If there's no accountability, it will happen again.

How are you going to do that then? Without a painful rethinking of the world economy, China does what it pleases. That’s the realpolitik.

The world economy is already being re-thought. The pain has started.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#117

Post by Maursault »

tgv wrote: post #56
roenxi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were evil, they'd have tried harder. Which is also the argument against it being a bioweapon - most pathetic bioweapon ever if it was.

If we’re going evil conspiracy: it could have been an attempt at bringing down the status quo. China very much wants to be top dog, and Mao once replied to the question what he would do if he lost his 100 million soldiers: I’ve got 900 million more.

> if he lost his 100 million soldiers

While today China has the largest military with 2.8M soldiers, sailors and airmen, Mao had, at best, 50K soldiers in his Red Army.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#118

Post by op00to »

birken wrote: post #105
void_mint wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. We're living in very different worlds I guess.

Yes, don't you remember the early days of the pandemic when Donald Trump was very pro-mask, including regularly wearing a mask himself, and then only when the liberal started moralizing he turned anti-mask?

Ex-president, twice impeached Trump on April 3, 2020 at the White House: “The C.D.C. is advising the use of nonmedical cloth face covering as an additional voluntary public health measure. So it’s voluntary. You don’t have to do it. They suggested for a period of time, but this is voluntary. I don’t think I’m going to be doing it.”

“I just don’t want to be doing — I don’t know, somehow sitting in the Oval Office behind that beautiful Resolute Desk, the great Resolute Desk. I think wearing a face mask as I greet presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens — I don’t know, somehow I don’t see it for myself. I just, I just don’t.”

You are delusional.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#119

Post by op00to »

prox wrote: post #10
roenxi wrote: post #2

In the absence of anything else, the existence of RaTG13 seems like pretty reasonable circumstantial evidence of it being a lab leak. The lab had RaTG13 samples - so either the disease travelled a rather long way from Yunnan to Wuhan or someone in the lab was experimenting with the virus doing something interesting and novel.

My take is that there is sufficient motive for China not wanting it to be a lab leak. It opens up the door for blame and scrutiny, something the Chinese Government hates beyond all other things if we look at their profile of operation. That alone, and doors that got closed when it came to researching the lab is suspicious. Whatever it may be, the original sars had a solid origin within 6 months of research.

> the original SARS had a solid origin within 6 months of research

… citation required and also an explanation of what “within 6 month of research”. Exactly when did this 6 month period start and finish?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#120

Post by stormbrew »

tomohawk wrote: post #110
motohagiography wrote: post #99

Working closely to the issue on a couple of fronts, I think debate about the disease origin is a distraction from the real debate everyone has a stake in, which has been the policy response and the legitimacy of lockdowns, vax passports, mandates for health status disclosure, and discrimination based on health information. Who cares if it came from a lab, there are zero consequences to anyone whether it did or not, a…

The worldwide community is large. We can do many things all at the same time. Investigating the source is not a distraction. We now have documentary evidence that Fauci authorized money to be channeled through various organizations to labs in Wuhan. These documents also link people involved with this activity to the very same people who assured us through letters to a highly respected journal that the lab leak theory…

> It's unlikely that the people investigating will be the same ones developing new drugs or treatments for covid.

Maybe not, but maybe they should instead be investigating how policy failed us so catastrophically around the world after it escaped its original area.

When the world obsesses over its origin, it seems to be blatant deflection over failures at home.

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