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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#211

Post by School-Cotton »

titzer wrote: post #172
advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

Your metric seems silly given that there are several groups of people actively trying to kill each other for religious, ideological, or ethnic reasons in various parts of the world.

People in the US may well hate each other more than people in most peaceful developed countries, sure. But “this planet” is a big place.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#212

Post by pyinstallwoes »

imnotreallynew wrote: post #176
Thorentis wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scary part is that it's impossible to verify where most of the online content on both sides come from. The enemies of the West must be having a field day with how easy it is to insert radically opposite and polarising views into each side and then watching big issues become quashed, and little issues become magnified beyond proportion.

> The scary part is that it's impossible to verify where most of the online content on both sides come from. The enemies of the West must be having a field day with how easy it is to insert radically opposite and polarising views into each side and then watching big issues become quashed, and little issues become magnified beyond proportion. I have a theory that I cannot provide verifiable evidence for, but due to th…

I can confirm noticing the same, and I'd say there was a huge change in 2018/2019. After that it started to get _real weird_.

It reminds me heavily of the Dead Internet Theory.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#213

Post by andrepd »

Clubber wrote: post #207
titzer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

>because hate, hate, hate, hate. That's what sells ads. If you read an article that makes you feel superior to another group of people, like "look what these stupid people are doing," in so many words, that's a hate-monger company. There are many. Fear also sells, and it's a cousin to hate. You can't really have hate without fear. Fear of loss, fear of some unknown boogie man (George Soros, Koch brothers, etc.) It's…

It's amazing the huge amount of the world's ills that ultimately can be traced back to advertising. Online social networks have only turbocharged it.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#214

Post by rossdavidh »

int_19h wrote: post #197
titzer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

All sarcasm aside, thank you for adding a bit of perspective to my day.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#215

Post by MisterBastahrd »

Thorentis wrote: post #154
cwp wrote: post #128

This is stupid. You can't debate facts. Either SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, or it didn't. Unless somebody comes forward to say, "Yeah, I tore my glove while transporting some test tubes and I got sick two days later," we're never going to know for sure. The only sensible thing to do is assume that it's at least possible that it was a lab leak and reevaluate the risk-benefit tradeoff of this type of research. That i…

The issue they are addressing, is that some people assert a natural origin of COVID-19 as fact, when in fact as shown in this article, there is no evidence to support it. So in one sense you're right, we can only debate the likelihood of finding facts to support the theory of lab leak vs natural origin right now. The aim of this paper is to encourage that debate rather than try to silence it, the way the natural orig…

There are two parts to this.

Whether COVID came from a lab or not is only of tangential importance. If you have a system in place, it will get breached eventually. Forever and always. It's China. Nobody else is responsible for China.

What is VASTLY more significant, and where most of the debate is centered, is how we responded to the fact that a deadly virus was spreading. The terms "Wuhan-flu," "kung-flu" and "China virus" were direct attempts by political leaders to deflect the responsibility for their lack of action and failure to mitigate the affects of the virus.

Hell, it's a lesson even a child should know: you are not always responsible for the situation you're in whether that's a kid picking on you or COVID, but you are fully responsible for your reaction. My son's favorite word right now is "well...." because as very bright 8 year old, he wants to discuss his reasoning process with me to justify why he acted the way he did. And mine is "well, nothing..." because most of the time when we have these incidents, his reaction is out of step with how we've taught him to behave in the situation.

The political arm of the Trump administration was FULL of "well..." instead of addressing the issue, and the political polarization of the US has allowed a big percentage of the population to justify their own responses to mitigation efforts in the same manner. Because most adults have gotten there by reaching a certain age, not by reaching maturity.

I remember watching in horror as the US was shutting down its borders because the virus had spread to Europe, but people were packed into our major international airports like sardines and remained there for hours. It was and is incredibly stupid and irresponsible.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#216

Post by Aeolun »

advael wrote: post #147
eunos wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. Surprising how easy it is to fracture American society then.

I would have been surprised even as recently as ten years ago. Now, I am not. American society has been fractured for quite some time, and is only growing more fractured, exactly because of how easy it is in the current political climate and with current technology

After Trump nothing surprises me any more.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#217

Post by Aeolun »

glitchc wrote: post #124
TheCowboy wrote: post #109

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning…

I think what it really brings to light (at least for me) is the incompetence of the CCP in the matter. I have no qualms about China conducting research in this regard, other countries are doing it too and we would be naive to think otherwise. However, if it is proven to be true that gain of function research was being conducted at the Wuhan laboratory, it highlights the sheer stupidity of the government in thinking t…

> I think what it really brings to light (at least for me) is the incompetence of the CCP in the matter.

Incompetence? I think the regime came out of this pretty well. They’ve completely disrupted literally every country in the world, and China itself has been only marginally affected, lacking any of the truly large waves that devastated the US and India.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#218

Post by briandear »

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies.

Maybe because data started showing that masks aren’t reducing infections? Or Gavin Newsome and London Breed partying like rock stars without masks.

Or the Met Gala where only the servants wore masks?

Or the data (from schools,) that show the masks weren’t affecting infection rates?

Or Fauci saying “no” privately? Then yes publicly? Or the insanity of people wearing masks when driving alone in their car? Or running in the woods?

Nothing about mask policy has been sane.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#219

Post by jimmaswell »

pyinstallwoes wrote: post #212
imnotreallynew wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scary part is that it's impossible to verify where most of the online content on both sides come from. The enemies of the West must be having a field day with how easy it is to insert radically opposite and polarising views into each side and then watching big issues become quashed, and little issues become magnified beyond proportion. I have a theory that I cannot provide verifiable evidence for, but due to th…

I can confirm noticing the same, and I'd say there was a huge change in 2018/2019. After that it started to get _real weird_. It reminds me heavily of the Dead Internet Theory.

I noticed a lot of comments on political subreddits around that time repeating arguments in very specific ways, often reusing "catch phrases". At the same time they made it against the rules to call out bots.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#220

Post by chitowneats »

civilized wrote: post #205
TheBlight wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you have a complete understanding of the larger opposing point of view that you think you do. What you're regurgitating is a media enhanced narrative. You are upset with a caricature.

Nah, I've talked to enough of these types to know the information and reasoning they're relying on. One of my personal quirks is a lifelong fascination with crackpots. And for what it's worth, I have some heterodox opinions on certain COVID-related topics. For example the case against ivermectin has been greatly overstated, although there is still room for reasonable doubt about its efficacy. Not everyone with a stre…

If you can admit the discourse around Ivermectin is confused, then perhaps you can see why some arrive at the wrong conclusion with respect to mRNA vaccines.

Is it possible that some are not as equipped as you are to discern the signal within the noise?

Is it possible you are incorrect about one or more of your heterodox opinions?

The type of sneering you're engaging in is unbelievably counterproductive. Uncivilized, even.

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