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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

thelancet.com

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Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#151
post #128

This is stupid. You can't debate facts. Either SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, or it didn't. Unless somebody comes forward to say, "Yeah, I tore my glove while transporting some test tubes and I got sick two days later," we're never going to know for sure. The only sensible thing to do is assume that it's at least possible that it was a lab leak and reevaluate the risk-benefit tradeoff of this type of research. That i…

It is stupid. Previous authors published in the Lancet did call for suppression of debate and facts. From the first sentence of the parent article:

On July 5, 2021, a Correspondence was published in The Lancet called “Science, not speculation, is essential to determine how SARS-CoV-2 reached humans”. The letter recapitulates the arguments of an earlier letter (published in February, 2020) by the same authors, which claimed overwhelming support for the hypothesis that the novel coronavirus causing the COVID-19 pandemic originated in wildlife. The authors associated any alternative view with conspiracy theories by stating: “We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin”. The statement has imparted a silencing effect on the wider scientific debate, including among science journalists.

The 2/20 letter stated:

The rapid, open, and transparent sharing of data on this outbreak is now being threatened by rumours and misinformation around its origins. We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin.

These are the scientists who wanted to deny facts: Charles Calisher, Dennis Carroll, Rita Colwell, Ronald B Corley, Peter Daszak, Christian Drosten, Luis Enjuanes, Jeremy Farrar, Hume Field, Josie Golding, Alexander Gorbalenya, Bart Haagmans, James M Hughes, William B Karesh, Gerald T Keusch, Sai Kit Lam, Juan Lubroth, John S Mackenzie, Larry Madoff, Jonna Mazet, Peter Palese, Stanley Perlman, Leo Poon, Bernard Roizman, Linda Saif, Kanta Subbarao, Mike Turner

The above statement may sound mild-mannered to a lay person but it had greater import and effect, as outlined by this BMJ article, "The covid-19 lab leak hypothesis: did the media fall victim to a misinformation campaign?" [https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1656]

Scientists and reporters contacted by The BMJ say that objective consideration of covid-19’s origins went awry early in the pandemic, as researchers who were funded to study viruses with pandemic potential launched a campaign labelling the lab leak hypothesis as a “conspiracy theory.”

A leader in this campaign has been Peter Daszak, president of EcoHealth Alliance, a non-profit organisation given millions of dollars in grants by the US federal government to research viruses for pandemic preparedness.1 Over the years EcoHealth Alliance has subcontracted out its federally supported research to various scientists and groups, including around $600 000 (£434 000; €504 000) to the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Shortly after the pandemic began, Daszak effectively silenced debate over the possibility of a lab leak with a February 2020 statement in the Lancet. “We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that covid-19 does not have a natural origin,” said the letter, which listed Daszak as one of 27 coauthors. Daszak did not respond to repeated requests for comment from The BMJ.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I've long thought the best way of reaching 100% vaccination in the US was to have competing Democrat and Republican vaccines. Democrats could don a dashiki and say one thing while Republicans could put up a crack smoking pillow salesman to say another.

This was a stroke of pure genius by this writer at Breitbart IMO. Spoilers: it breaks the narrative so it doesn't work. https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/10/nolte-how...

Was that satire? I honestly couldn't tell.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a stroke of pure genius by this writer at Breitbart IMO. Spoilers: it breaks the narrative so it doesn't work. https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/10/nolte-how...

Was that satire? I honestly couldn't tell.

That's pretty much my take on America right now as well coincidentally.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#154
post #128

This is stupid. You can't debate facts. Either SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab, or it didn't. Unless somebody comes forward to say, "Yeah, I tore my glove while transporting some test tubes and I got sick two days later," we're never going to know for sure. The only sensible thing to do is assume that it's at least possible that it was a lab leak and reevaluate the risk-benefit tradeoff of this type of research. That i…

The issue they are addressing, is that some people assert a natural origin of COVID-19 as fact, when in fact as shown in this article, there is no evidence to support it.

So in one sense you're right, we can only debate the likelihood of finding facts to support the theory of lab leak vs natural origin right now. The aim of this paper is to encourage that debate rather than try to silence it, the way the natural origin proponents seem to want to do.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#155
post #119
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take is that there is sufficient motive for China not wanting it to be a lab leak. It opens up the door for blame and scrutiny, something the Chinese Government hates beyond all other things if we look at their profile of operation. That alone, and doors that got closed when it came to researching the lab is suspicious. Whatever it may be, the original sars had a solid origin within 6 months of research.

> the original SARS had a solid origin within 6 months of research … citation required and also an explanation of what “within 6 month of research”. Exactly when did this 6 month period start and finish?

See Wikipedia on SARS section “origin and animal vectors”

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#156

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning…

Just wanted to second that I think Zeynep Tufekci has consistently had by far the best rational analysis of the pandemic over the past 18+ months. I find her commentary always does a great job at analysis and she never falls into the trap of social pressure affecting her conclusions or messaging.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#157
post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

The scary part is that it's impossible to verify where most of the online content on both sides come from. The enemies of the West must be having a field day with how easy it is to insert radically opposite and polarising views into each side and then watching big issues become quashed, and little issues become magnified beyond proportion.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#158
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unlikely that the people investigating will be the same ones developing new drugs or treatments for covid. Maybe not, but maybe they should instead be investigating how policy failed us so catastrophically around the world after it escaped its original area. When the world obsesses over its origin, it seems to be blatant deflection over failures at home.

The parent already addressed this concern: >The worldwide community is large. We can do many things all at the same time. Investigating the source is not a distraction.

I'm not sure I agree with the sibling comment about what the evils are, exactly, but this is the very thing I'm addressing -- that it isn't a given that we're doing multiple things at the same time.

This is a great argument when we're talking about, for example, people working on making phones vs. people working on cancer research -- their efforts aren't interchangeable.

But political capital to examine policy failures? That's a limited precious resource that is all too often redirected towards frivolous, self-interested pursuits by people who are unwilling to examine their own.

China is an easy scapegoat here. You see it all over this thread. Many many americans talking about Chinese policy while their country pretended nothing was happening for months and likely facilitated the virus' travel throughout the US and the world as one of the main epicenters of travel.

American politicians (as well as others'), as well as the beaurocracies under their control, love nothing more than people looking at anyone but them when something goes wrong and they will take advantage of it.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#159
post #115

The best piece that one can read on the origin of covid is by Zeynep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h... I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. China made a lot of mistakes and also kept other countries in the dark for way too long no matter the origin. It can also serve as a warning…

> I am still confused how people think that it being an accidental "lab leak" is any more damning of the role China played in the initial outbreak. Huh. I think most people find that if something "happens to you" it's less your fault than if you "made it happen". If your house burns down from a gas line explosion nearby, that's bad luck for you. If it burns down because you had a pile of paper next to your stove whil…

If you had a grease fire in your kitchen but didn't call the fire department because you didn't want your neighbors to know you couldn't cook the situation would be similar. Especially if it burned down the whole neighborhood.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

religion is a way to coalesce and exert power on large groups of people. religion is politics.

For very narrow definitions of religion, sure.

rather a very significant aspect of religion, otherwise spirituality would suffice.
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