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An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

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141–150 of 335 posts

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#141

Does it even matter any more? From where I stand Covid-19 might have been much less devastating globally if it had been treated seriously in the early days. In fact, based on the initial footage from Wuhan, countries should have adopted more stringent protocols when they repatriated their nationals, i.e. quarantine on arrival etc... If in doubt throw everything including the kitchen sink at just to be sure. But it is…

In the UK we quarantined all people coming in from Wuhan, while flights from Chinese cities outside of Wuhan continued to run without restriction, even though it was known that the virus was there too. There was a lot of wishful thinking and denialism back in January/February 2020. The only country that got the initial response right was North Korea, they shut all their borders, and were mocked for it too.

It's reasonably plausible that what doomed efforts to keep Covid out of the UK (and the US too!) was travel from Italy, not China. Both countries had pretty decent contact tracing for cases linked to China and those people didn't spread it much, the initial outbreak cities of London and New York had substantial travel to the worst-affected region of Italy due to Fashion Week, and the first exported case from the UK detected in I think Singapore had direct ties to that.

Also, something definitely seems to have gone seriously wrong with Italy's response - they were detecting zero cases up until way too soon before their hospitals collapsed, which suggests they were doing a worse job of testing people hospitalized with potential Covid symptoms than even the US which had screwed up so badly it had an official policy of not doing so due to test shortages. Trouble is, Italy is currently run by the kind of technocrats the media likes, so there was no incentive to drag them through the mud. Instead the press spun other countries as worse because they weren't caught by surprise like Italy and so should've done better, without asking questions about how that surprise happened exactly.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know some conservative, religious, pro-Trump communities were very focused on stopping the spread of covid and locking down. It wasn’t a partisan issue, it was common knowledge that covid-19 made people sick and we had to stop it. Until Donald Trump decided to say covid-19 is a hoax and preventative measures are unnecessary. Presumably because he‘s so contrarian that anything the Democrats supported he opposed a…

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

I kind of feel the same way. Like if our goal is vaccination, yea, republicans do have to eat some humble pie, but liberals shouldn’t make it harder for them than it has to be.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#143
post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I've long thought the best way of reaching 100% vaccination in the US was to have competing Democrat and Republican vaccines. Democrats could don a dashiki and say one thing while Republicans could put up a crack smoking pillow salesman to say another.

This was a stroke of pure genius by this writer at Breitbart IMO. Spoilers: it breaks the narrative so it doesn't work.

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/10/nolte-how...

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#144
post #118
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, don't you remember the early days of the pandemic when Donald Trump was very pro-mask, including regularly wearing a mask himself, and then only when the liberal started moralizing he turned anti-mask?

Ex-president, twice impeached Trump on April 3, 2020 at the White House: “The C.D.C. is advising the use of nonmedical cloth face covering as an additional voluntary public health measure. So it’s voluntary. You don’t have to do it. They suggested for a period of time, but this is voluntary. I don’t think I’m going to be doing it.” “I just don’t want to be doing — I don’t know, somehow sitting in the Oval Office behi…

They're not delusional, they're sarcastic. Like hyperbole, this isn't conducive to good discussions. I'm so tired of internet discourse where people are constantly trying to one-up each other.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know some conservative, religious, pro-Trump communities were very focused on stopping the spread of covid and locking down. It wasn’t a partisan issue, it was common knowledge that covid-19 made people sick and we had to stop it. Until Donald Trump decided to say covid-19 is a hoax and preventative measures are unnecessary. Presumably because he‘s so contrarian that anything the Democrats supported he opposed a…

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks.

It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#147
post #139
post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

> until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. Surprising how easy it is to fracture American society then.

I would have been surprised even as recently as ten years ago. Now, I am not. American society has been fractured for quite some time, and is only growing more fractured, exactly because of how easy it is in the current political climate and with current technology

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#148
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

religion + politics = religion (?) eg. Aztec empire edit: the Aztec empire is an example for this. The religion was politically enforced and thus the political system became part of the religion. So the question is, isn't religion a case that refutes the parent's hypothessis.

religion is a way to coalesce and exert power on large groups of people. religion is politics.

For very narrow definitions of religion, sure.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

> No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks.

My comment was about how, if this statement is true, you mostly skipped over it in favor of asking for action out of non-conservatives.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#150
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

I kind of feel the same way. Like if our goal is vaccination, yea, republicans do have to eat some humble pie, but liberals shouldn’t make it harder for them than it has to be.

> but liberals shouldn’t make it harder for them than it has to be.

It's not hard. It's insanely not hard. It's so unfathomably not difficult that this comment reads like satire. Walk into any grocery store or pharmacy.

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