An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#201

Post by int_19h » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:16 AM UTC

petre wrote: post #59

wilsonfiifi wrote: post #8

Does it even matter any more? From where I stand Covid-19 might have been much less devastating globally if it had been treated seriously in the early days. In fact, based on the initial footage from Wuhan, countries should have adopted more stringent protocols when they repatriated their nationals, i.e. quarantine on arrival etc... If in doubt throw everything including the kitchen sink at just to be sure. But it is…

It doesn't work. It didn't work for Australia and NZ. It just fuels racism and police abuse. What works is vaccinate as many people as possible even from poorer nations. The disease was already in curculation in Europe and the US when we found out about it. Its outcome will change the way we travel for years to come just like 9/11 has.

Why are you saying that it didn't work for NZ? Sure, they still got infections, but the scale is incomparable to those countries that didn't lock down travel.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#202

Post by giantrobot » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:17 AM UTC

armchairhacker wrote: post #146

void_mint wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And now it’s too late, since many conservatives got so invested in the fact that covid-19 is fake, and people can’t admit when they’re wrong. I wish liberals were more sympathetic and tried to make it easier for conservatives to accept the vaccine instead of mocking and shaming. But it’s so hard to get people to admit when they’re wrong. It's interesting that you didn't say "I wish more conservatives would admit th…

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

> At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed.

I think you'll find most "liberals" are pretty understanding that militant anti-vaxxers are delusional and misinformed. The issue is less with their delusion and more with the militancy of their delusion and the societal consequences.

If the militant anti-vaxxers instead of being anti-vax were just pro-drinking bleach then the danger of that delusion would be personal. Only idiots drinking bleach would be harmed.

What's happening though is the delusion of the militant anti-vaxxers is causing problems for everyone. They're breaking if they haven't broken hospital systems in many parts of the country, they're a breeding ground for new variants of the virus, and they're actively fighting mitigation measures to contain the spread of the virus in kids who can't be vaccinated.

People that have acted rationally and have socially distanced, worn masks, and gotten vaccinated are being negatively affected every day by delusional sociopaths. These same delusional sociopaths have made every aspect of the pandemic worse.

Why should anyone feel the need to keep coddling them? The militant anti-vaxxers are keeping the pandemic a pandemic, had they gotten fucking vaccines we could have COVID at least partially under control at endemic levels. Their words and actions advertise the fact they are sociopaths. Dealing with them is exhausting and unrewarding.

It's sad that positions on vaccines tracks so closely to political persuasion. At the same time if delusional sociopathy is part and parcel of a so-called political philosophy maybe that suggests a little self-reflection is needed for its proponents.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#203

Post by AdvancedSimian » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:18 AM UTC

justicezyx wrote: post #193

angelzen wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zing! This is how communist regimes work in practice: * Utter incompetency. Got to promote the 'working class' in positions of authority across the board regardless of actual qualifications. Got to follow ideological prescriptions to a T regardless of real-world outcomes. * Extreme message control. The communist society is perfect, except for those horrible people that refuse to support the party 100%. And also movin…

> communist regimes Not sure how this comes into the question. There has not been a communist regime on earth, according to Karl Marx's definition. And China is a capitalism country... Ask any mentally stable US citizen visiting China, if they tell you that China is in any bit less capitalism than USA, they probably are trying not to offend your American Exceptionalism.

So we're getting the "real communism has never been tried" trope here on HN?

Honest question: do fascists use the same excuse?

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#204

Post by int_19h » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC

input_sh wrote: post #65

dkersten wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An intentional lab leak makes no sense to me at all. Very few people are arguing that it was intentional. I agree that an intentional lab leak is highly, highly unlikely, but I think an accidental lab leak is at least just as likely as the wet market hypothesis and CCP certainly acted extremely suspicious.

Accidental lab leaks happen often and are owned up to. Not just in China, everywhere (US, France, Russia, Hungary, Sierra Leone, etc): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laboratory_biosecuri... If you scroll to the bottom of it, China owned up to accidentally leaking brucellosis mere months before Covid became a thing, sourced by China Daily (CP's English website). That's why I don't get the accidental lab leak…

The simplest explanation is that they didn't report it because they thought they could contain it; and why embarrass yourself when you believe that you can avoid that?

It might not even be something initially decided by those on top. Just as likely that the lab management decided to sweep it under the rug to avoid damage to their reputation, and then by the time it blew up, the higher-ups couldn't admit to being ignorant without damage to their reputation; and so on, all the way to the top. It happens all the time in bureaucracies.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#205

Post by civilized » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:21 AM UTC

TheBlight wrote: post #200

civilized wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people seem fundamentally ridiculous these days. Silly, frivolous, unserious, out of touch with reality. They should know better, and they don't care that they should know better. They're motivated by something else. I don't know if that's a new thing or not, but that's how it has seemed to me during this pandemic. Quite a few people have gone without an easy, safe, miraculously effective vaccine - a marvel…

I don't think you have a complete understanding of the larger opposing point of view that you think you do. What you're regurgitating is a media enhanced narrative. You are upset with a caricature.

Nah, I've talked to enough of these types to know the information and reasoning they're relying on. One of my personal quirks is a lifelong fascination with crackpots.

And for what it's worth, I have some heterodox opinions on certain COVID-related topics. For example the case against ivermectin has been greatly overstated, although there is still room for reasonable doubt about its efficacy.

Not everyone with a streak of independent thought on COVID is a fool, but essentially all the vaccine haters are. Drunk on sentimental nonsense and ideological fantasy, with just enough fact mixed in to make the toxic brew superficially plausible. The 1/6 rioters were much the same.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#206

Post by chitowneats » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:22 AM UTC

listenallyall wrote: post #191

armchairhacker wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misi…

> conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. Minorities (POC, Latinx) have the lowest vaccination rates. Do these groups generally lean conservative? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health...

It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. Vague references to the "Tuskegee Experiments", a real event that of course has had some effect on the way some minorities view Western medicine and vaccines. Or notions of "access", despite the vaccines being completely free and widely available for many months.

Tuskegee was many decades ago. There are much more recent examples of the pharmaceutical industry and doctors prescribing a product to millions of Americans that was later shown to be harmful, at least for some patients. I'm of course referring to Oxycontin and other supposedly "non-addictive" opioids. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died as a result of these drugs. Countless more lives stunted or ruined.

In my view, events like this explain a great deal of working-class (including white, who heavily lean Republican) skepticism about novel treatments. Just today, Pfizer issued a complete recall of the anti-smoking drug, Chantix, after discovering it can increase cancer risk:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/09/17/cha...

I hope we all can have more empathy for anyone who is skeptical after witnessing or experiencing harm after a incident like this. I'm not saying all fear or skepticism is valid or warranted. Just that I wish people would not judge the individuals involved for their (presumed) politics, and work towards greater education and understanding.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#207

Post by Clubber » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:26 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #172

advael wrote: post #98

It's a mantra at this point that polarization has gotten out of control, but one of the biggest effects it seems to have is this reverse-psychology effect I'm in a big American city, and I remember that until the online kids and snarky liberals started moralizing about mask protocol, there wasn't as much resistance to wearing masks among right-wing crazies. I remember when there was that controversy about 5G networks…

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

>because hate, hate, hate, hate.

That's what sells ads. If you read an article that makes you feel superior to another group of people, like "look what these stupid people are doing," in so many words, that's a hate-monger company. There are many. Fear also sells, and it's a cousin to hate. You can't really have hate without fear. Fear of loss, fear of some unknown boogie man (George Soros, Koch brothers, etc.) It's all to sell advertisements and keep you WATCHING and READING! Pretty sad that is all it takes: money.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#208

Post by nradov » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:26 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #197

titzer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said…

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred.

What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#209

Post by int_19h » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:27 AM UTC

sinyug wrote: post #51

I have no love lost for China[1], or Russia, or the US, all of whom have been duping successive Indian governments for the last 75 years for their own gains.[2] However, if we were to assume that the origins are neither natural (wet markets) nor accidental (lab leaks), but deliberate action on the part of some state that is not China, I have to wonder about the likelihood of this being a botched attempt at triggering…

If you really want to delve into this kind of conspirology, why not point at North Korea, who benefits significantly from having neighboring China that is hostile to US (and will thus prop DPRK as a counter?)

Re: An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: the origin of Covid-19

#210

Post by int_19h » Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

zionic wrote: post #93

playcache wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When will the general public stop seeing conspiracy theories as imaginary tales? Covid leaked from a lab is viable. Bill Gates injecting microchips into everyone in order to invoke a new global cabal I would argue is firmly in the imaginary tale bracket.

I monitor conspiracy stuff heavily and I never saw anyone there claim there were microchips in the vaccines. I did however see a bunch of comments in “mainstream” sections mocking a conspiracy I never saw support for.

My mother went all in on the conspiracy theories due to COVID (by now it extends to 5G and Illuminati). From looking at the stuff she shares, there's plenty there about microchips.