for those unaware (like me), "FSD" is the extremely misleading term Tesla uses to describe their cars as "Full Self Driving".
Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
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Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
Looking at the video Tesla was probably not closer than 25 feet from any pedestrians. If pedestrians were closer I think their proximity would make the car stop as in other videos. As to abrupt maneuver, EU limits rate of change for steering control and I think it would be wise for US to adopt something similar for driver assist systems.
like this? https://twitter.com/tripgore/status/1311661887533314048?s=21
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#293for those unaware (like me), "FSD" is the extremely misleading term Tesla uses to describe their cars as "Full Self Driving".
Technically it is fully self driving, it's "just" that you have a (much) lower chance of arriving safely at your destination than with a human driver.
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#294I think the whole dream/goal of building a self driving car on top of a system completely designed for manual human interpretation and input is asinine, and that's before you even consider the complexity of adding other humans manually driving or suddenly walking in front of your car from a blind spot. Instead of building a digital system from the ground up, we are forcing manufacturers to come up with tech to read s…
Every new EV from Rivian to GM to BMW uses the “Combined Charging System.” Tesla, chooses to continue to use their own proprietary design in the U.S. despite having CCS technology available. (and the implementation completed already - European Tesla models ship CCS - required by law.)
Tesla will sell you $10K beta software that wants to steer into pedestrians, that most choose to pay for because after delivery, the price doubles (so act fast!) Most who fork that kind of cash are not able to access all parts of this beta software, this software license cannot sold/transferred to the next owner regardless of what the maroney sticker says, but don’t worry, FSD is being launched next month.
If thats excusable, surely then everyone’s ok with vendor lock in for DC Fast charging unless one wants to shell out $450 for a slower “old school” Chademo adapter, the fact one cannot buy replacement parts for their car, and cannot repair their own vehicle.
Tesla - America’s Beta Test Success Story.
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually, all kinds of data pertaining to the decision making process is recorded (at least for some of Tesla's competitors, not sure about Tesla), and in great detail. The data is specifically designed to make the AI driver "debuggable", i.e. it includes all kinds of details, intermediate representations, etc that an engineer would need to improve a poor decision, and thus certainly to understand a poor decision. Wh…
You can log and debug the inputs going into the black box, and the outputs, but how do you debug inside the black box?
They can use those intermediates to project a kind of thought process others can look at - and you've probably seen videos and images of that kind of thing too; i.e. a rendered version of the 3d intermediate world it's perceived, enhanced with labels, enhanced with motion vectors, cut into objects, classified by type of surface, perhaps even including projections of likely future intent of the various actors, etc.
Sure, you can't fully understand how each individual perceptron contributes to the whole, but you can understand why the car suddenly veered right, what it's planned route was, what it thought other traffic participants were about to do, which obstacles it saw, whether it noticed the pedestrians, which traffic rules it was aware of, whether it noticed the traffic lights (and which ones) and how much time it thought remained etc.
...at least, sometimes; I don't know anybody working at Tesla specifically.
Here, for example waymo has a public PR piece kind of highlighting all the kind of stuff they can extract from the black box: https://blog.waymo.com/2021/08/MostExperiencedUrbanDriver.ht...
And while they emphasize their lidar tech, I bet Tesla's team, while using different sensors, also has somewhat similarly complex - and inspectable - intermediate representations.
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#296I think the whole dream/goal of building a self driving car on top of a system completely designed for manual human interpretation and input is asinine, and that's before you even consider the complexity of adding other humans manually driving or suddenly walking in front of your car from a blind spot. Instead of building a digital system from the ground up, we are forcing manufacturers to come up with tech to read s…
In particular, road maintenance is already expensive and often left to rot. Still, current driving is relatively robust - even if a few signs are damaged or go missing, no major issues will occur. Road signs keep working even during storms, even if there is no power, even if something has hacked national electronic systems, even if the GPS is not accessible.
Replacing all this with brittle, finicky, expensive, easy to attack en masse digital systems is not a great idea.
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#297Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…
I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…
Aircraft operate in an extremely controlled environment that is almost embarrassingly simple from an automation perspective. Almost everything is a straight line and the algorithms are intro control theory stuff. Lateral nav gets no more complicated than the difference between a great circle and a rhumb line.
The collision avoidance systems are cooperative and punt altogether on anything that isn't the ground or another transponder-equipped airplane. The software amounts to little more than "extract reported altitude from transponder reply, if abs(other altitude - my altitude) Any remaining risk is managed by centralized control and certification, which just isn't going to happen for cars. We aren't going to live in a world where every street has to be (the equivalent of) an FAA certified airport with controls to remove any uncertainty about what the vehicle will encounter when it gets there. Nor are we going to create a centralized traffic control system that provides guarantees you won't collide with other vehicles on a predetermined route.
So it's just a completely different world with completely different requirements. Are there things the aerospace world could teach other fields? Yeah, absolutely. Aerospace is pretty darn good at quality control. But the applications themselves are worlds apart.
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#298Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…
I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…
What aircraft autopilot does is following a pre-planned route to the T, with any changes being input by humans. The aircraft autopilot doesn't do its own detection of obstacles, nor of router markings; it follows the flight plan and reacts to conditions of the aircraft. Even when executing automatic take-off and landing, the autopilot doesn't try to detect other vehicles or obstacles - just executes the plan, safe in knowledge that there are humans actively monitoring for safety. There is always at least two humans in the loop: the pilot in command who prepared and inputed the original flight plan and also inputs any route changes when needed (collision and weather avoidance), and an air traffic controller that continuously observes flight paths of several aircrafts and is responsible for ensuring safe separation between aircraft in his zone of responsibility. Beyond that, an ATController has equal influence on all aricraft in his zone of responsibility, and in case one does something unexpected, it can equally well redirect that one or any other one in vicinity. Lastly, due to much less dense traffic, the separation between aircraft is significantly larger than between cars [1] providing time for pilots to perform evasive maneuvers - and that's in 3d space, where there are effectively two axes to evade along.
Conversely with car FSD - the system is tasked both with following the route, and also with continuously updating the route according to markings, traffic, obstacles, and any contingencies encountered. This is a significant difference in quantity from the above - the law and the technology demands one human in the loop, and that human can only really influence his own car at most. Even worse, due to density of traffic, the separation between cars is quite often on the order of seconds of travel time, making hand-over to driver a much more rapid process.
I am moderately hopeful for FSD "getting there" eventually, but at the same time I'm wary of narrative making unwarranted parallels between FSD and aircraft autopilot.
[1] https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/our-services/h...
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
I recently avoided a startup prospect because they were looking to build a car OS that wasn't hard real-time. The very idea that they're trying to develop such things that might intermittently pause to do some garbage collection is freaking terrifying.
That doesn't seem especially bad. The car could, for instance, predict whether or not it was safe to do garbage collection. Humans do the same when they decide to look away while driving.
If a GC has to pause the world to do its job there's none of that background processing happening while it's "looking away".
Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown
#300Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…
That might explain the car trying to re-route on the display, although I'm not even sure it does. To me it looks like the black line disappears into compression artefacts at just the right time.
Mostly I think we don't have enough evidence either way and speculating just expresses our desire for the technology to work or not.