Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#531

Post by walteweiss » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

asats wrote: post #437

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there a lot of evidence that Russia's elections are rigged? Like turnout percentages have ridiculous percentages of ratios that end in 0 and 5 - as do growth in turnout.

They are rigged, but not as fully as they were in e.g. Belarus. Russia is a giant country with 85 "states" and around ~100k polling stations, so the process is very complex and involves different voting and administrative cultures. In some of those states they are fully rigged, with 95% turnout and 98% votes for the ruling party, but in some the elections are surprisingly fair. In a lot of others they can be made fai…

A very nice explanation, thank you!

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#532

Post by Angostura » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #472

Angostura wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. Withdraw the app and you go to jail. Don’t withdraw the app and your Russian employees go to jail

[flagged]

If you look more close into Chamberlain’s record it’s pretty clear he was playing for time while he put his efforts into Britain’s depleted armed forces and armaments. It wasn’t all about appeasement.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#533

Post by yanderekko » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #460

tablespoon wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they do want to put profit ahead of everything else, then whatever, but you don't get to defend them as doing the right thing for their employees. They're enabling the whole situation. IMHO, cooperating with an authoritarian regime in this way should be illegal, sort of like a sanctions violation. Cook and Pachai should go to jail for this. That consequence might clarify their thinking a little.

Hmmm. Withdraw the app and you go to jail. Don’t withdraw the app and your Russian employees go to jail

No - this is elementary game theory. By precommitting to "if I withdraw the app I will go to jail", then the Russian threat would become ineffective and they wouldn't make it to begin with.

Granted, the real world is more complicated but this is equivalent of using the strategy of disabling your steering wheel before playing a game of chicken.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#534

Post by Angostura » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #522

Angostura wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. Withdraw the app and you go to jail. Don’t withdraw the app and your Russian employees go to jail

Option 3: choose to make less money and don't have offices in countries with human rights records as bad as russia. I know this isn't realistic, because we can't expect a company to make less money. that'd be crazy!

Surely option 4 is the best option - the US government issues a list of countries within which no US business can have any operations or sales. Better than leaving it to individual companies.

Don’t forget to write up your list and start lobbying your congressional representative

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#535

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #529

whimsicalism wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as this very story demonstrates. This story is sufficient to demonstrate that Russia is a "sham democracy"? Does the fact that Twitter/Facebook/et al banned the NYPost in the run-up to the 2020 election as well as preventing people from sending links to NYPost articles in their DMs "demonstrate" anything about the US?

I mean.. > The Post, According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, was rated the least credible major news outlet in New York. from https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/

Absolutely, they are incredibly biased and basically a rag outlet.

In no way does that justify preventing me from sending true information relevant to a public figure in a chat.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#536

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #514

tablespoon wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hm, guess I'd like to live in a sham democracy then, as blocking me from sending certain political thoughts in my chat messages is unacceptable to me. No one's blocking you. Go put a sign up in your front yard, just don't complain your rights are being trampled when I don't let you put up a sign in my yard. Other people have rights too, and that includes the right not to cooperate with you.

Yes, this is a good exemplification of the "freedom as non-interference" view that Pettit criticizes. This conception has become very popular in the 20th century, especially among libertarians. The image of society given by your picture does not resemble real life. Facebook and I are not equal actors akin to neighbors disputing over what gets put in their front yard. It is this recognition that we are not equal neigh…

> The image of society given by your picture does not resemble real life. Facebook and I are not equal actors analogous to neighbors disputing over what gets put in their front yard.

You're never going to have a society that equal. Do you all the sudden have the right to put signs up at my house because it's bigger or on a busier street than yours? Should you be able to put chapters in the books I write because no one wants to read yours?

I think there are good arguments that Facebook is too big and should be broken up, but the NY Post Hunter Biden "story" isn't one of them. It was garbage, and filtering out garbage is an important function. I'm familiar enough with garbage to realize that.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#537

Post by yanderekko » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #467

michaelt wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because there are shades of grey, doesn’t mean we can’t tell black from white.

I am not convinced that we can tell black from white. I also think that there ought to be a certain level of relativism when it comes to judging political systems. Is it democratic that an unelected group of 9 people can unilaterally essentially decide the law of the land in the US?

>Is it democratic that an unelected group of 9 people can unilaterally essentially decide the law of the land in the US?

Are republican (little r) systems inherently authoritarian in your view?

Do you actually fear that SCOTUS is going to start imposing some sort of autocratic control over American government? I'm not. You probably aren't either. There are institutional explanations for this.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#538

Post by yanderekko » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #493

tablespoon wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Define "authoritarian regime" A simple rule of thumb definition (that could probably use some refinement) is regimes that are either explicitly anti-democratic or a sham democracy. Russia certainly falls into the latter category, as this very story demonstrates. In most cases, it's not that hard.

> as this very story demonstrates. This story is sufficient to demonstrate that Russia is a "sham democracy"? Does the fact that Twitter/Facebook/et al banned the NYPost in the run-up to the 2020 election as well as preventing people from sending links to NYPost articles in their DMs "demonstrate" anything about the US?

>Does the fact that Twitter/Facebook/et al banned the NYPost in the run-up to the 2020 election as well as preventing people from sending links to NYPost articles in their DMs "demonstrate" anything about the US?

Not about its government, given that they did not demand (or even informally pressure) that the tech companies involved make this move.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#539

Post by amatecha » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #535

amatecha wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean.. > The Post, According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, was rated the least credible major news outlet in New York. from https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/

Absolutely, they are incredibly biased and basically a rag outlet. In no way does that justify preventing me from sending true information relevant to a public figure in a chat.

I think it makes sense to block a known-unreliable news outlet because they are usually seen as sources of authoritative, correct information, and once they have proven they are no longer reliable, anything they say no longer holds the same weight of proper journalistic integrity (essentially losing the privilege of trust and perceived "authority").

If there is true, factual information they posted about, the same information can almost surely be sourced from another, more reputable news outlet that is known to fact-check and provide accurate information.

FWIW, I blocked/muted NYPost twitter account years ago because of their vitriolic, sensationalized and misleading click-bait articles. If you can't convey important news without manipulating me, you have no credibility and are no better than a grocery-store-checkout tabloid.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#540

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #536

whimsicalism wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a good exemplification of the "freedom as non-interference" view that Pettit criticizes. This conception has become very popular in the 20th century, especially among libertarians. The image of society given by your picture does not resemble real life. Facebook and I are not equal actors akin to neighbors disputing over what gets put in their front yard. It is this recognition that we are not equal neigh…

> The image of society given by your picture does not resemble real life. Facebook and I are not equal actors analogous to neighbors disputing over what gets put in their front yard. You're never going to have a society that equal. Do you all the sudden have the right to put signs up at my house because it's bigger or on a busier street than yours? Should you be able to put chapters in the books I write because no on…

The whole point is that this sign on yard analogy is just not relevant to real world circumstance. Facebook and Twitter have outsized control over how I socialize with others.

If every major cell phone provider chose to stop delivering any text with that article attached to it, would that be acceptable? What if they decided to unilaterally stop delivering any texts from the Trump campaign?

Clearly there is a line to be drawn, and falling back on "it's their private property and thus their right to filter it however they want" is not sufficient in the 21st century, in the age of platform companies and extreme corporate consolidation.

> It was garbage, and filtering out garbage is an important function

Garbage? It was new, previously unreported information. I voted for Joe Biden, and I still found it of interest - and it did appear to contradict some things Biden had said publicly.