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Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

reuters.com

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Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#271

Post by Arech »

jhgb wrote: post #262
Arech wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is not. (if you really "living in Scandinavia") You literally don't understand what are you talking about, which is damn obvious when you comparing Scandinavia or even US to Russia. You basically comparing Tesla car to horse-drawn carriage and draw similarities on a basis that both have 4 wheels and therefore they are both great and safe transportation devices.

I'm not from Scandinavia and the vast majority of US politicians look like interchangeable parts to me as well.

It doesn't matter. What matters are how many of them and their staff or supporters gets bullied by the authorities, forced to flee the country, found themselves or their relatives in the middle of absurd lawsuits, gets beaten, poisoned or killed?

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#272

Post by tut-urut-utut »

How is that different from Apple and Google removing apps of Trump supporters and social media companies closing their communication channels?

Is it democratic, as opposed to this case, just because companies did it without an official request from the government/courts?

Here's comes to mind the old saying: "a King only has to think about something, and others will do it without him even asking. Smaller players will need to actually request and even use the brute force to get things done".

As a side note, Navalny is not a democrat, he's a racist, but somehow gets labelled as democrat in western media just because he's against Putin.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#273

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ethanbond wrote: post #128
martin_a wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't stop there! What about terrorists, drug dealers and the organized crime?! We need to stop those, too!

I bet if those crimes were proliferating at the rate that CSAM is, a lot of people would be pursuing more active counter measures

Is there data to show thay CSAM proliferating at a different rate than those crimes?

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#274

Post by jhgb »

Arech wrote: post #271
jhgb wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from Scandinavia and the vast majority of US politicians look like interchangeable parts to me as well.

It doesn't matter. What matters are how many of them and their staff or supporters gets bullied by the authorities, forced to flee the country, found themselves or their relatives in the middle of absurd lawsuits, gets beaten, poisoned or killed?

My point was purely about elections, and that elections only matter if you have a reasonable amount of choice. You're arguing about something completely different.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#275

Post by fsflover »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #105
tandav wrote: post #35

Money is money. Thats sad but predictable. The future web should be decentralized.

> Money is money. Thats sad but predictable. The future web should be decentralized. The web is already decentralized, by design. It's just that people are all flocking to the exact same services and providers for "convenience". Nobody has to use Google services, or buy an iPhone and use iPhone apps. Google isn't the web. What the web needs is to be distributed in order to be more resilient or even evade censorship.…

> The web is already decentralized, by design.

App stores and Youtube are not decentralized. See: Peertube and Linux repositories.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#276

Post by heavyset_go »

avianlyric wrote: post #71
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have they ever explained why the csam would be implemented? Apple bends just fine if the government is powerful enough and the marketplace is big enough, see China.

In their defence (I say this with some trepidation), if they want to see their products in another country, then they need to play by that countries rules. Regardless of how we in the west feel about those rules. If a Chinese company came to the US or EU and ignored US or EU rules and lawful directives from government, we would quite rightly be up in arms about that. With regards to CSAM, I think the same applies. Af…

> With regards to CSAM, I think the same applies. After all the CSAM issue only exists because the US government has decided that invasive monitoring is the only way to counter CSAM.

No it hasn't. There is no legislation that the government passed or enforces that says Apple must scan people's private data on their devices for CSAM. Apple decided to do that all on their own.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#277

Post by ClumsyPilot »

Grustaf wrote: post #137
sfifs wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can insist that if they are in the phone rental business and the ownership of the phone on their balance sheet, not if they're in the phone sales business. If you sell a product, it's pretty much illegal to control what people can and can't do with it. They can still control usage of iCloud which is a service they're renting out. Of course they don't care about CASM to switch their business model to do this lega…

Of course you can have terms of use for things you sell, I don't know why you would think otherwise. In this case it IS linked to iCloud though, as you probably know. Images are only scanned on their way to iCloud, and they won't be scanned if you don't use iCloud.

Terms of use are totally different - they allow you to sue a person if they use it againt the terms, and your ability to sue based on them is going to be very limited. Putting in the TOE of a car: " you are not allowed to drive kids in it" will not be enforceable.

In this case the company retains direct control over your property, and changed what it does after you bought it and paid for it.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#278

Post by dilap »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #265
avianlyric wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their defence (I say this with some trepidation), if they want to see their products in another country, then they need to play by that countries rules. Regardless of how we in the west feel about those rules. If a Chinese company came to the US or EU and ignored US or EU rules and lawful directives from government, we would quite rightly be up in arms about that. With regards to CSAM, I think the same applies. Af…

> In their defence (I say this with some trepidation), if they want to see their products in another country, then they need to play by that countries rules. I understand your trepidation in saying it. That is simply a fact of reality as it stands and how businesses operate under the current incentives, not a value judgement. However, it makes me think that liberal democracies should play hardball. The USA already ha…

I don't think liberal democracies care about these freedoms, other than as a rhetorical stick to hit countries that "illiberal" with. E.g. imprisonment of Julian Assange, removal of Trump from twitter, Atlantic Council as official part of FB content moderation team (w/ the probably-not-coincidental) subsequent removal of pro-Venezuela and far left groups.

(Plus also IMO being banned from FB and Twitter are materially much more harmful to a political movement than being banned from an app store. EDIT: Maybe not, since per other comment it was being used to organize election results.)

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#279

Post by Arech »

jhgb wrote: post #274
Arech wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter. What matters are how many of them and their staff or supporters gets bullied by the authorities, forced to flee the country, found themselves or their relatives in the middle of absurd lawsuits, gets beaten, poisoned or killed?

My point was purely about elections, and that elections only matter if you have a reasonable amount of choice. You're arguing about something completely different.

My arguing is exactly about that! You can't name something as "elections" when ~~a huge~~ any part of country's people not just don't have a political representative at all, but gets actively counteracted to have such representative.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#280

Post by heavyset_go »

Grustaf wrote: post #194
cheschire wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, it could be as simple as that. What’s got some people up in arms isn’t that. The police in America have proven repeatedly that they will ignore individual freedoms to look indiscriminately for people doing bad things. Apple creates a tool that enables pattern matching without consent. But they promise they won’t use it for more than CSAM, and that only they will hold the keys. Okay so imagine that y…

The police will only be involved after their scanner has found 30 matches and Apple’s reviewer has manually concluded that it actually is CSAM, so I don’t see how the police is really relevant? If HOA means home owners association, I don’t see the connection. They can’t influence Apple either.

> * Apple’s reviewer has manually concluded that it actually is CSAM*

There is no manual review of the image by Apple employees. What is viewed is a derivative image, which is scaled down and blurred. It would be trivial for someone to use legal pornographic images and put it through a NeuralHash collision generator, which upon viewing the scaled down derivative image, would look like CSAM.

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