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Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

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Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#231

Post by danShumway »

defaultname wrote: post #183
NKosmatos wrote: post #16

Very typical of Apple, using opaque approval procedures. They're acting like bullies because they didn't get what they wanted and because they have the money/power to do so. Apple wanted to buy FlickType but they didn't agree on the price or Eleftheriou didn't want to sell (I doubt it), and so from then onwards started the downhill ride. I fully support Eleftheriou on this just for the principle, but if I were in his…

The original issues with the app weren't opaque at all: Keyboard utilities can't have network access. Then he noted that it can operate without it, but the entitlement can't even exist for any users, even optionally. That is very clearcut. At least without the App Store reviewers crawling all over everything you do, putting an enormous level of scrutiny over everything you do. And the functionality has to justify it…

> The original issues with the app weren't opaque at all: Keyboard utilities can't have network access. Then he noted that it can operate without it, but the entitlement can't even exist for any users, even optionally. That is very clearcut.

Completely wrong. I assume you saw some source online saying that network access was banned across the board for keyboard apps, maybe someone looked at the default restrictions and extrapolated from there. Easy mistake to make. Anyway, see below:

----

> To be clear, Apple’s own developer guidelines specify that “full access” isn’t a problem: the only dispute here is whether the app continues to work if a user turns it off — which it does, says Eleftheriou, if you turn VoiceOver on. “They’d have to try it as a VoiceOver user, something that they don’t seem to bother doing. I’ve had several rejections in the past because the reviewer didn’t know anything about VoiceOver,” Eleftheriou says.[0]

And from Apple's (as far as I can tell, still current) developer documentation:

> By default, a keyboard has no network access and cannot share a container with its containing app. To enable these things, set the value of the RequestsOpenAccess Boolean key in the Info.plist file to YES. Doing this expands the keyboard’s sandbox, as described in Designing for User Trust.[1]

Which then goes on to extensively document how network access can be added to a keyboard utility. Pretty far away from a utility-wide ban.

[0]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/16/22627515/flicktype-ios-ke...

[1]: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Ge...

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#232

Post by micromacrofoot »

mabbo wrote: post #211

This is the key problem when a market-maker is also a market participant. When the same entity setting the market rules, deciding who is violating them, and collecting the market data is also an active competitor against everyone else in that market. It's not a fair playing field. Apple knows that, but pretends that it is. I say it's a problem, but I don't have a solution. It's hard to say "Apple can't make apps for…

>This is the key problem when a market-maker is also a market participant.

Yes! During the last US election cycle I thought Elizabeth Warren was smart to make a point of this about Amazon... I don't think this issue gets enough attention and very few people seem to care.

There are numerous ways this is an unfair practice, and the problem gets worse as the marketplace owner continues to grow and devour competitors.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-criticizes-...

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#233

Post by dagmx »

judge2020 wrote: post #160

Watch keyboard? How does that work? Did it use the iPhone as a proxy to swipe on the watch (since there are obviously no APIs to custom keyboards on the watch).

It was a standalone app that you'd type within, and then use the equivalent to the share sheet to send it to other apps.

A video of it in action here: https://youtu.be/KYnAB4jYJV4

So it did take you out of a flow to do it.

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#235

Post by salamandersauce »

sircastor wrote: post #180
Razengan wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why has there never been a horde of torches and pitchforks outside Castle Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo yet? And don’t squeeze out that “cOnSoLeS aReNt cOmPuTeRs” bullshit. They’re closer to computers than a goddamn wristwatch.

Arguably, there has been. It’s harder to see because the interface is different in those cases. It’s not as public. Developers have been trying to get around game console lock out for as long as it’s existed. Nintendo’s licensing was very restricted with the NES, and it really annoyed a lot of software developers. Same case with XBox and PS. You can’t willy nilly write a game for either platform. For some reason the…

I feel like it was far more fair pre-OTA updates. EA for example famously strong armed Sega when they reverse engineered the Genesis allowing them the right to make their own cartridges (which is why EA games look different) and better terms than what they otherwise would have gotten.

These days if a company tried that Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft would just laugh and issue a firmware update "improving system stability" three weeks later bricking any unlicensed games in the process.

There was even a handful of unlicensed titles for PS2/GC.

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#236

Post by Symmetry »

d35007 wrote: post #161
Symmetry wrote: post #114

What made me leave the iPhone ecosystem, many years ago, was when they pulled all the podcatchers off the app store because they were going to be adding podcast support to iTunes soon. Not only that but getting podcasts from iTunes at the time meant plugging your iPhone into your computer running iTunes, much less convenient than having your phone download things over WiFi. Especially since I was using Linux and didn…

When was this? Based on https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2005/06/28Apple-Takes-Podcast... , it looks like Apple added podcast support to iTunes in 2005. The iPhone wasn’t released until 2007 and the App Store didn’t exist until 2008.

I was using an iPhone 3GS so it would have been 2009 or 2010. I might very well have been mistaken about podcast support in iTunes being new given that I didn't use iTunes.

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#237

Post by andrekandre »

smoldesu wrote: post #181
atatatat wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Larger discussion: Is this what being a hacker is now? Knowing your project is going to get stomped out with uncompetitive practices from day 1, still doing and carrying it all the the way through to court with a big player?

25 years ago, that was still the hacker ethos. Linux stood no chance against the commercial operating systems of the day, and Microsoft was in the process of accretion to a similar position Apple is in today. Yet, against all odds, David sprouted wings and Goliath kneeled.

how much of this was initially enabled by the anti-trust settlement and subsequent restrictions on microsofts behavior?

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#238

Post by caslon »

mhh__ wrote: post #71
caslon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, reading documents on a computer. A keyboard. Both of these are things that have never been done outside of the Apple ecosystem before Apple made their copies. I don't like Apple, but come on. Reading documents is what computers have historically proven best at, and a keyboard is a pretty logical extension of any given electronic device. Would sure save everyone a lot of time if these things were built in.

Is an iPhone the same as an Android? They're both phones after all?

If you're not copying code, you're just doing what everyone else does: Creating a loose derivative of something else. There's never been an original creative work.

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#239

Post by jacquesm »

Terretta wrote: post #218
jacquesm wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half Life is not a device, modders are not application programmers targeting that device.

> [Software] is not a device. Then what are you engineering? --- Edit to elaborate: I'm convinced this is the essence of the debate that has intensified as parts that move at the speed of light are devouring physical parts. Switch, transistor, if statement -- a maker should be able to convert one type of part to another type of part without losing their rights, or accidentally triggering a "oh, look, general computin…

Sorry, but you really can't just define some arbitrary alternative universe and then expect the debate to take place on your terms.

Re: Apple blocked the FlickType Watch keyboard then announced a clone of it

#240

Post by jacquesm »

salamandersauce wrote: post #235
sircastor wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, there has been. It’s harder to see because the interface is different in those cases. It’s not as public. Developers have been trying to get around game console lock out for as long as it’s existed. Nintendo’s licensing was very restricted with the NES, and it really annoyed a lot of software developers. Same case with XBox and PS. You can’t willy nilly write a game for either platform. For some reason the…

I feel like it was far more fair pre-OTA updates. EA for example famously strong armed Sega when they reverse engineered the Genesis allowing them the right to make their own cartridges (which is why EA games look different) and better terms than what they otherwise would have gotten. These days if a company tried that Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft would just laugh and issue a firmware update "improving system stability" t…

And this is now also brought to vehicles, TVs and many other devices, more often than not to fix broken business models or extract more revenue or spy on users instead of to fix bugs.
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