Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

bmj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

411–420 of 1001 posts

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#411

Post by throwawayfear »

jowday wrote: post #343
throwawayfear wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Past covid gives antibodies that are superior to two shots of Pfizer. https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... So yes, it IS just as good as the vaccination and should be treated as such. Vaccinating people for the sake of vaccinating them is illogical here. And don't even get me started on vaccine passports, which are completely unnecessary. If a place of employment absolutely needs proof of v…

I'd agree with you that vaccine passports definitely represent a sacrifice of individual liberty for safety - but what makes you say that that they're "completely unnecessary"? If we accept that a vaccinated person has a lowered, but not eliminated, chance of contracting and transmitting COVID, wouldn't it make sense to avoid contact with people that are at a much higher risk of infection? If you feel that the tradeo…

They would reduce transmission of the virus in the same way that locking everyone in temperature-controlled air-corrected 24/7-monitored government housing pods would reduce the transmission. Maybe those pods are better, because they could ship us food and let us out for exercise at times determined by an efficiency algorithm!

The question is, is the cost worth it?

There's no need for a "sacrifice of individual liberty for safety." That's Orwellian talk for going along with tyranny. By this point, the majority of Americans are going to have antibodies before long from a combination of vaccinations and past covid. Over 100 million already had past covid and I already shared links about how those antibodies are superior to two shots of Pfizer. So how is it necessary for those people to have to subject to a "papers please" tyranny? No thanks.

Implementing these passports will cause something even worse than some covid spread to happen. A two-tiered society where one segment of society is viewed as unhealthy, unclean, even dangerous. History is replete with examples of this being a bad thing.

And philosophy aside, there's also newer evidence showing that for some segments of the population it may be riskier to vaccinate.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r...

So why start enforcing passports? To accidentally find out later on, after creating a two-tiered society, that there may be unintended long-term consequences for the teenagers? Nope. Time for YOU, reader, to say no and realize that these passports are just about control. They don't care about your health. It's about power. Think critically about the system being built. It's about the control.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#412

Post by billycorben2 »

steelframe wrote: post #384
billycorben2 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am 28. A programmer with a sedentary lifestyle. I was covid positive last October and kicked it fine (verified with a test). I was tested 2 weeks ago for antibodies, my results were a “76” (I assume percentage?). Why should I get vaccinated?

I was tested 2 weeks ago for antibodies after receiving the vaccine. My results were "0." And yet I experienced all the typical side effects from the vaccine, indicating that I probably had an immune response to it. Nobody knows what any particular antibody count means with respect to risk to your health from a future COVID infection. Instead, we need to be looking at the hard statistics about who's getting admitted…

Genuine question: Do we have data on hospitalization and mortality rates of unvaccinated but previously exposed?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#413

Post by tshaddox »

isolli wrote: post #252
jowday wrote: post #189

The answer is pretty simple - the moment authorities start saying "well, natural immunity is probably just as good as vaccination, we'll accept that as equal to vaccination for passport purposes", a huge segment of the population who's on the fence about getting the vaccine might just opt to wait until they're infected naturally, or, even worse, get infected purposefully (EG, chicken pox parties). Which leads to more…

While not wrong in itself, your comment epitomizes everything that has been wrong with our public health response. Trying to manipulate populations into a desired behavior by lying to them is, as you point out, counterproductive in the long run.

But where's the lie? If it's true that public health would be better if nearly everyone got the vaccine, then it isn't a lie to say that nearly everyone should get the vaccine in order to improve public health.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#414

Post by throwaway894345 »

weaksauce wrote: post #315
throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

there was a fitness instructor in colorado that didn't get the vaccine because he had tested and had antibodies in his blood. then he got covid again(or maybe the first time?) and it just absolutely decimated his body. he lost 70 lbs and is walking around with an oxygen bottle. the only real way to make sure you have proper antibodies and B and T cell responses is to have either gotten a symptomatic case of covid tha…

You can't learn much from a sample size of 1. In particular, there are people who have been vaccinated who have also died of COVID. The question is whether or not natural immunity affords comparable (or better) protection to the virus than the vaccine, and it seems that the data are indicating that it does. This should be a good thing--instead of being angry that it takes away our justification to force others to do something, we should be happy at the prospect of combatting covid without having to force people to do anything.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#415

Post by fernandotakai »

extheat wrote: post #43

Given the political discussions about “booster shots”, I find this quote pretty interesting: > Other studies suggest that a two dose regimen may be counterproductive. One found that in people with past infections, the first dose boosted T cells and antibodies but that the second dose seemed to indicate an “exhaustion,” and in some cases even a deletion, of T cells.34 “I’m not here to say that it’s harmful,” says Bert…

i really don't understand why booster shots are a "political discussion"

i have normal flu booster shots ever year -- and that's fine. why not for covid?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#416

Post by tshaddox »

pasquinelli wrote: post #253
jowday wrote: post #189

The answer is pretty simple - the moment authorities start saying "well, natural immunity is probably just as good as vaccination, we'll accept that as equal to vaccination for passport purposes", a huge segment of the population who's on the fence about getting the vaccine might just opt to wait until they're infected naturally, or, even worse, get infected purposefully (EG, chicken pox parties). Which leads to more…

hasn't it blown up in their face everytime the authorities tried to be strategic with their messaging (a nice way to say play silly games)?

I don't know, has it really "blown up in their face," or do people just use supposed examples of "strategic messaging" to support their preexisting commitments? In other words, are people actually changing their decisions based on specific examples where public health officials allegedly lied or used strategic messaging, or are they simply using those examples to justify their own actions?

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#417

Post by rayiner »

jowday wrote: post #376
bedhead wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. We have been so unbelievably myopic with COVID it truly hurts my head. Even today, ask someone who's COVID-obsessed, "What exactly is your longer-term plan here?" and watch as their mind breaks down. Too many people have completely stopped thinking about what they're trying to achieve and how they're going to do it. Half the country is just stuck, focused on short-term and no attention paid to anything else and…

>Half the country is just stuck, focused on short-term and no attention paid to anything else and it's freakin disastrous. The pandemic is largely over culturally and mentally for pretty much all of the country - I'm in the middle of San Francisco and the only real remaining enforced anti-COVID measures are flashing your vaccine card before going into bars, masks inside of gyms, and masking and demasking when you ent…

> The pandemic is largely over culturally and mentally for pretty much all of the country - I'm in the middle of San Francisco and the only real remaining enforced anti-COVID measures are flashing your vaccine card before going into bars, masks inside of gyms, and masking and demasking when you enter restaurants - although I remember a friend with kids telling me there's still some strangeness at schools.

That's a real understatement. Here in Maryland, my 8 year old is still in a mask at school both inside and outside. She's been a trooper with all the precautions over the last year and a half, but started crying when she heard her school was going to do masking again in the fall, because it means probably another year of social distancing in schools (not being able to play with all your friends, etc). The masks really interfere with her gymnastics class, because of O2 restrictions as well as difficulty hearing/understanding what instructors are saying.

My 3 year old is masked all day in preschool, as well as at his extracurriculars. He does a "toddler crossfit" type class where all the kids and instructors are masked, and it's a disaster. At this age their ability to comprehend instructions is marginal to begin with. Add the muffled speech and inability to see facial expressions and it means the kids have a lot of trouble understanding what's going on. I've done A/B testing helping my kid with the activities. With a mask on, he has a much harder time understanding me, and also mistakes my mood--e.g. he can't see me smiling so he interprets my giving him directions as yelling (it's loud in the gym obviously).

Wearing a mask, as we did for 4-5 hours on a flight recently, weirds out my 2 month old since he can't see my face. We are not going to even try to send him to daycare with masked caregivers. I hate to sound like a nutter--I'm a STEM major, I know how to "science"--but I don't trust that they actually have considered the developmental effects on infants not being able to see faces for 8 hours a day at daycare.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#418

Post by pessimizer »

bitcurious wrote: post #225
Someone1234 wrote: post #52

The answers aren't medical, they're pragmatic. - COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose). - We lack the quantity of Antibody Tests we'd need. - We'd need to set up additional systems and processes to accommodate the testing and proof (which, again, is a cost). The implicit assumption that often go along with these natural immunity proponents is that the vaccine is unsafe. Since i…

> COVID-19 Antibody Tests cost more than the vaccine (roughly $40 Vs. $16/dose). So a marginal cost of $24. Folks with natural immunity will have a stronger reaction to the vaccine, but let’s be conservative. Let’s say 12 hours of symptoms - headache, fatigue, light fever. Very standard with a shot. At around the minimum wage of $8/hour that’s a cost of $96. How much do you value your time? Full disclosure: happily v…

Eh, I had it on Saturday, and had a nice sleepy Sunday. Definitely fatigue, but nothing to remember on Monday.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#419

Post by HWR_14 »

mattmanser wrote: post #316
beaner wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have heard second hand many doctors are downplaying the importance of the vaccine for people under 18 The vaccine is not important for people under 18. Only 412 people age 17 or younger in the US have died from covid. [0] Teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the vaccine than be hospitalised from Covid-19. [1] [0] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex... […

It's nothing to do with them catching it, it's about them spreading it. The usually bandied figure is 80% immunity to stop the pandemic. Without the teenagers vaccinated, that's never going to get hit. Wait until winter hits and the cases spike, then it's suddenly going to become "necessary", but if they'd made that hard decision 3 months ago this would already be over.

> The usually bandied figure is 80% immunity to stop the pandemic.

That was pre-Delta. The higher the R0, the more mitigation we need to do. The question is what gets RE below zero.

At this point, with Delta's R0 and the vaccine's effectiveness, it looks like mere vaccination without masks is going to be insufficient in large groups (e.g. at a giant concert, a big play). But, since all the precautions have a multiplier, that's fine. It means we can keep doing those things as long as we take precautions while we do it and not assume vaccine = ignore COVID.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#420

Post by giantg2 »

weaksauce wrote: post #315
throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

there was a fitness instructor in colorado that didn't get the vaccine because he had tested and had antibodies in his blood. then he got covid again(or maybe the first time?) and it just absolutely decimated his body. he lost 70 lbs and is walking around with an oxygen bottle. the only real way to make sure you have proper antibodies and B and T cell responses is to have either gotten a symptomatic case of covid tha…

If we're using anecdotes... how about the fully vaccinated guy that didn't have antibodies? Seems like issues can exist on both sides.

Not the specific guy, but... https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/half-people-did-had-no-11063...

Post reply on HN