Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#331

Post by hammock » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

SigmundA wrote: post #247

gorwell wrote: post #138

DR. GUPTA: "I get calls all the time, people say, 'I've already had COVID, I'm protected.' And now the study says maybe even more protected than the vaccine alone. Should they also get the vaccine?" DR. FAUCI: "I don't have a really firm answer for you on that." https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1436417459314171904

I think the full response better convey's his position: "You know, that's a really good point, Sanjay. I don't have a really firm answer for you on that. That's something that we're going to have to discuss regarding the durability of the response. The one thing that paper from Israel didn't tell you is whether or not as high as the protection is with natural infection, what's the durability compared to the durabilit…

What Fauci doesn't mention is that there isn't just one paper from Israel.

There are 15 large-scale studies.

Every single one demonstrates that natural immunity is at least as protective as the jab.

And depending on when the study was done protection is shown for over 10 months (basically however long as whatever data was available). Many of the papers logically extend the protection to lifetime in their conclusions.

https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-15-studies-that-indi...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#332

Post by weaksauce » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #325

weaksauce wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there was a fitness instructor in colorado that didn't get the vaccine because he had tested and had antibodies in his blood. then he got covid again(or maybe the first time?) and it just absolutely decimated his body. he lost 70 lbs and is walking around with an oxygen bottle. the only real way to make sure you have proper antibodies and B and T cell responses is to have either gotten a symptomatic case of covid tha…

Bill Phillips, author of Body For Life and founder of EAS supplements before selling it to Abbott. https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article253708748.htm... (Unvaccinated fitness guru gets COVID and spends 47 days intubated. ‘I made a mistake’) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Phillips_(author)

yeah that guy is the one I was talking about. The virus is like playing russian roulette without a vaccine in you.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#333

Post by nanis » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #310

beaner wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have heard second hand many doctors are downplaying the importance of the vaccine for people under 18 The vaccine is not important for people under 18. Only 412 people age 17 or younger in the US have died from covid. [0] Teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the vaccine than be hospitalised from Covid-19. [1] [0] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex... […

> Only 412 people age 17 or younger in the US have died from covid. How many avoided death because they had good health care? One of my pet peeves about this pandemic is how death metrics keep being pushed around, as if it was not a big deal. If this pandemic had hit before we had modern health care facilities, it would have been comparable to the great pandemics in history. Besides, what happened to the children tha…

> How many avoided death because they had good health care?

If you are going play that game, you also need to ask how many died between March - June 2020 because of panicked doctors intubating everyone left and right with no one around to advocate for the patients.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#334

Post by Jenk » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #271

throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

I'd lean towards "probably not safe"; we only just found that teenage boys are at 6x more risk from heart problems from the vaccine than any risk from covid itself: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/09/teenage-boys-ris... https://archive.is/ixG5G

Non-paywalled article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r...

Link to (as yet not peer-reviewed) study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v...

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#335

Post by PragmaticPulp » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

mattparcens wrote: post #307

wpietri wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Serology is a thing, sure. But two points: Getting a serum test rather than getting the vaccine is not going to be cheaper, easier, or better studied. We are not constrained on vaccine supply. So the practical advantage of allowing a totally different pathway is not obvious. Creating another pathway adds a lot of cognitive load and confusion. The bar bou…

Cognitive load does not justify imposing potentially involuntary medical treatments on people, particularly not onto people for whom the benefit is likely of very little marginal value. The cognitive load could be built into the "vaccine card" anyway - I have a driver's license with a couple of extra checkboxes showing that I need corrective lenses and am authorized to drive a motorcycle, but most people need only be…

> Cognitive load does not justify imposing potentially involuntary medical treatments on people,

FYI: The current legislation requires weekly testing or proof of vaccination, but it doesn't actually impose the vaccine on anyone who doesn't want it.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#336

Post by nradov » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

jowday wrote: post #248

aqme28 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe (or Germany at least) accepts natural immunity in lieu of vaccination. As far as I've heard, no one has been getting covid on purpose as a result.

I mean ultimately we’re guessing at the rationale of the leadership of each of these countries - but I’d guess based on vaccination rates that Europe generally has less of an antivax problem than the US, so authorities there might be less concerned about vaccine hesitancy. Vaccine hesitancy in the US is also very regionally concentrated - maybe less so in Germany? “COVID parties” are also a worst case scenario - I th…

There is a huge variance in vaccination rates of European countries. The US is behind most western European countries but ahead of most eastern European countries.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#337

Post by n8henrie » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #271

throwaway894345 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results. Also, in many cases, "proof of vaccination" includes a cell phone photo of the piece of paper they handed out when you got a vaccine, so as it stands, lying is pretty easy. > Vaccines are safe and available yet we…

I'd lean towards "probably not safe"; we only just found that teenage boys are at 6x more risk from heart problems from the vaccine than any risk from covid itself: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/09/teenage-boys-ris... https://archive.is/ixG5G

> Researchers found that the risk of heart complications for boys aged 12-15 following the vaccine was 162.2 per million, which was the highest out of all the groups they looked at.

> Meanwhile, the risk of a healthy boy needing hospital treatment owing to Covid-19 in the next 120 days is 26.7 per million. This means the risk they face from heart complications is 6.1 times higher than that of hospitalisation.

It would seem more "apples to apples" to compare rates of hospitalization due to myo/pericarditis to hospitalization due to COVID, or rates of diagnosis of each condition.

The only case of vaccine-associated "heart problems" that I've seen required an NSAID with no further treatment. Unfortunate regardless.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#338

Post by not2b » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

billycorben2 wrote: post #268

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #155

Why? Probably because everyone and their uncle self-diagnosed a bad cold as COVID-19 and plenty more would lie about having natural immunity. Still I don't understand the current approach to COVID in the US. Vaccines are safe and available yet we only just approved the use in children under 12. I have heard second hand many doctors are downplaying the importance of the vaccine for people under 18. On the other hand p…

I am 28. A programmer with a sedentary lifestyle. I was covid positive last October and kicked it fine (verified with a test). I was tested 2 weeks ago for antibodies, my results were a “76” (I assume percentage?). Why should I get vaccinated?

To provide additional protection (especially since given that timing it almost certainly wasn't the delta variant that you got). Maybe you are protected by your previous infection and maybe you aren't.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#339

Post by detaro » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #320

beaner wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have heard second hand many doctors are downplaying the importance of the vaccine for people under 18 The vaccine is not important for people under 18. Only 412 people age 17 or younger in the US have died from covid. [0] Teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the vaccine than be hospitalised from Covid-19. [1] [0] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex... […

Minor correction. That 412 number is "covid involved", not "covid caused". This could be that the death was not at all due to covid, but the cadaver tested positive. They were in a car accident, for example. This could be actually caused by covid primarily. This could be covid tipped someone over the edge who was already very ill. EDIT: also hospitalizations for children are rare https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/CO…

> This could be that the death was not at all due to covid, but the cadaver tested positive. They were in a car accident, for example.

That's not how "covid involved" is defined, no.

Re: Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US?

#340

Post by errantmind » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

jowday wrote: post #292

isolli wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not wrong in itself, your comment epitomizes everything that has been wrong with our public health response. Trying to manipulate populations into a desired behavior by lying to them is, as you point out, counterproductive in the long run.

I wish I could say that if authorities hadn't lied about, say, masks or this stuff with natural immunity, things would gone a lot better and people would have behaved much more rationally about COVID, but I don't think that's true. I've got family in a small town in the south - the countermeasures they took against COVID basically amounted to Wal-Mart closing for a weekend in March. Most of the people there had made…

Lying and partisanship got us to where we are now. The skepticism that resulted from the lies has been re-targetted to the vaccine itself. I'm not sure how the policy makers didn't see this coming beforehand.