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Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

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Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it to protect the unvaccinated? COVID is not going away, so IMO here we just want everyone in this population to get the disease as fast as possible to get it over with. No we definitely do not want that. There are large deaths of the country where vaccinated people are dying of unrelated conditions simply because hospitals are too full of dying unvaccinated COVID patients. The only way this works is if hospital…

it's really simple: you ration care according to the urgency of need. it's no different than any other event that would bring more people to the hospital than usual. i've heard stories like what you're talking about. they don't make much sense. hospitals running out of oxygen? get more oxygen. that's why we have roads and trucks. not enough beds in the icu? build more. i think often about the start of the pandemic, b…

Serious questions:

1. Where do you get the extra oxygen? There are places asking residents to reduce water usage because they are running out of liquid oxygen (used for water treatment in those places) do to medical uses. Do we have an enough manufacturing capabilities to produce enough oxygen to satisfy demand? Can this easily be increased?

2. "Beds" is not accurate. Often hospitals at 100%+ capacity still have physical space (i.e. "beds"), but who staffs the beds? You need doctors, nurses, and custodial staff. Where do those come from? Traveling nurses are a thing and places like Florida and Texas are hiring hundreds (thousands?). What is they supply of these nurses? What about doctors?

3. Where do the dead go and how do you deal with it? At the beginning of the pandemic NYC has to use refrigerated trucks. Now Texas and Florida (and presumably other out of control places) are also using refrigerated trucks to store the dead. This is probably one of the easier logistical issues because presumably we could just freeze the thousands of dead people every day until morgues and other resources could catch up.

I don't think this is so simple as "get more oxygen" and "add beds".

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#422
post #229
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around here it's free and the pharmacy gives you a $5 coupon for getting it. They definitely see it as an easy way to get people through their doors.

Well, I assume it's covered by insurance but probably not actually free if you don't have insurance.

No insurance required. It's a loss leader to get people into the store.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#423
post #301

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Reducing transmission isn't good enough! If you have an R naught above one you're still in trouble. It's common knowledge that countries with highest vaccination rates have spikes in cases right now. Israel and Gibraltar for example. Herd immunity for this was always impossible.

As a counterpoint, Portugal currently has 81.10% fully vaccinated and 86.85% vaccinated once (meaning they'll be vaccinated again in 4 weeks or earlier), and the new infections are going down slowly but continuously for a while now. My point is not that you're wrong, but that you were cherry picking examples and there can be numerous other reasons for spikes in infections such as relaxed measures and mask mandates, h…

Yes, lock down and social isolation does work to prevent transmission but it also weakens the healthy immune systems and makes the population more fragile going forward.

Better to inoculate the most vulnerable, not the entire population for a fast mutating respiratory virus.

Polio can't really mutate and it makes a lot of sense to inoculate everyone for this.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#424
post #225

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As I mentioned on another thread, I just spent a few days in the hospital with an appendicitis. The hospital was swamped with COVID patients. It took 16 hours for me to be admitted to the hospital, which I was told was quite long for this hospital. My hospital roommate waited nearly 30 hours. The non-covid floor that I was on was severely understaffed, with nurses caring for 2.5x as many patients as normal. The nursi…

So your assumption is that all the covid patients were unvaccinated?

It's a safe assumption that MOST are unvaccinated based on all available data. But of course not ALL (statistically speaking).

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#425

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>sounds like another policy/politicized blanket statement not based on science. Or, it is public health advice based on science, looking at what they believe would be the most effective policy globally. They aren’t saying it does or doesn’t affect the level of antibodies. They aren’t arguing that it is effective or ineffective at boosting an individual’s immunity. You seem to be fundamentally confused about what they…

I’m just not sure what it means to say that global policy is based on science. They didn’t run an observational study a sample of other globes to see which decisions correlated with better performance; they used their scientifically-informed expertise to a degree, but they also made a series of judgment calls about what policy goals we should have and the likely consequences of various actions on geopolitics. Why are…

>they used their scientifically-informed expertise to a degree, but they also made a series of judgment calls about what policy goals we should have and the likely consequences of various actions on geopolitics.

Yes, that is exactly what they did, specifically because we don’t have other globes lying around that we can run randomized controlled trials on global events. Just because we don’t have perfect data on something, doesn’t mean that expert opinion based on detailed information is no more valid or valuable than any other opinion.

>Why are vaccine experts the right people to make those calls?

They aren’t making a call. They are providing their expert opinion in vaccines and vaccinations, on a topic related to vaccines and vaccinations, to inform policy makers that do make those calls. It is for policy makers to consult various data sources and experts in related fields to make an evidence based and evidence informed decision.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it to protect the unvaccinated? COVID is not going away, so IMO here we just want everyone in this population to get the disease as fast as possible to get it over with. No we definitely do not want that. There are large deaths of the country where vaccinated people are dying of unrelated conditions simply because hospitals are too full of dying unvaccinated COVID patients. The only way this works is if hospital…

Where are people dying because the hospitals are too full of unvaccinated patients dying of COVID-19?

In Southern Oregon, people with cancer or who are at risk of heart attack or stroke are being made to wait for care, because the hospitals are filled with unvaccinated COVID-19 patients:

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2021/09/absolutely-he...

In another rural region (Idaho, maybe?) there was just that, someone who had some treatable condition who was unable to be seen for all the unvaccinated COVID patients, and who died from the condition. I couldn't find the article, but it was just published on some authoritative news service a few days ago, in case you'd like to look for it.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like more and more people whom I would consider very partisan (either side) simply act out of spite nowadays. Whatever the other side wants, well, we're just going to unconditionally fight it. You saw this accelerate after Trump won with "Resist", an ethos that literally means to defy regardless of circumstances. And now you see the right's version of "Resist" by avoiding vaccinations. Why? Because screw the…

The one that made me the most upset was how large gatherings were bad, unless one was protesting about racial injustice. In which case, don't worry, those protestors had masks on. Well, if merely having a mask on in a thousands large march is okay, why not just allow all sized gatherings provided one is wearing a face covering?

An outdoor, fully-masked gathering is meaningfully different, and the people pushing against COVID restrictions were also pushing back against mask guidance. In reality, indoor masked gatherings were fairly safe, but the practical distinction was between outdoor masked or indoor unmasked.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#428
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Over 100 million Americans have already caught and recovered from Covid. I imagine many in that group don't see any value in getting the vaccine (rightfully so).

It's not only ignorant of the science, as you point out regarding prior immunity, but highly ignorant of history and social dynamics. Creating an underclass that is considered diseased and "dangerous to us" ends badly, to say the least. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization

In addition, minorities have reason to distrust the medical establishment.[0] For all the noise made about "voter ID is racist", almost no one has said that "vaccine passports are racist". Do we really want to create another two tiered system where minorities are the outgroup again?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#429
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly ignorant to call unvaccinated Americans idiots. Over 100 million Americans have already caught and recovered from Covid. I imagine many in that group don't see any value in getting the vaccine (rightfully so).

Anecdote to support your statement: A close friend that tested positive for COVID last year works at a hospital. They saw no value in getting vaccinated since they had already been infected and recovered. They were given an ultimatum last month of "get vaccinated or find a new job". Reason has left the building.

How it would have hurt to get a vaccine?

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They could no longer empathise with their patients, each describing a visceral anger at tending to ICUs of COVID patients, all unvaccinated. Did you ask them if they treat obese people the same way?

If obesity could be prevented with a simple shot, and was otherwise overwhelming our healthcare system, that might be a useful question.

I mean you could get Osha to start banning foods or do whatever with the jurisdiction they have now. Tax sugar out of existence. Then government subsidize all healthier foods. I mean the amount of money we spent no Covid we could have done all this....

But wait are you saying people should be able to make their on decisions? Obesity effects only a single person. Nope obesity is transmissible. I've seen too many couples where 1 is skinny and the other is obese or overweight. They both become overweight.

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