Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now • Hacker News Board

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#181

Post by hef19898 » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #170

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not sure if vaccinating outside of risk populations or to control hospitalizations if they are too high makes any sense Based on this logic, flu shots are useless. As is any treatment without guaranteed success, i.e. most medicine. (Note: prioritising vaccinating when hospitals fill up is programmatically, repeatedly peaking the healthcare system. It will do to it what repeatedly flooring the gas and hard braking w…

> flu shots are useless (I've been struggling with the following sentence for several minutes but here goes): flu vaccines aren't widely distributed - never mind recommended - for healthy young people. Countries appear to prioritise flu vaccine for older and/or more vulnerable people.[0] [0] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/flu-influenza-vac...

They are easy o get, readily available and reasonably well distributed (nowhere near Covid-numbers so). I only took them when I was working at a retirement home years ago, more for the residents then for myself. I was, as not being in constant contact with residents, not required to take the shot (if memory serves well, nit that it would have made a difference anyway), care personal and those being in regular contact with residents were obliged so. One of the reasons I don't get the discussion about obligatory Covid shots for health care professionals...

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#182

Post by tomerv » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

> Is it to protect the vaccinated? This makes no sense, as the risk to the vaccinated well below the range we have accepted for decades.

What is the acceptable range? Older people are still dying from Covid even after 2 shots. If a third shot can improve someone's protection from death due to Covid, say from 70% to 90% [1], that sounds like a good reason to take that shot.

The comparison between someone in Israel taking a booster shot and someone in a 3rd world country without access to vaccines is irrelevant - at least until there's a serious global initiative to provide vaccines to everyone around the world.

[1] Original stats talked about 90% protection, but that has gone down since then. One of the possible reasons is the need for a booster shot. But we still don't know what level of protection the booster shot will provide.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#183

Post by drewg123 » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

MontagFTB wrote: post #146

mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

I believe a serious issue with your “protect the unvaccinated” statement is it overlooks the amount of pressure they exert on our shared medical system. If your hospital beds are overrun with unvaccinated Covid patients, there is less room for others.

As I mentioned on another thread, I just spent a few days in the hospital with an appendicitis. The hospital was swamped with COVID patients. It took 16 hours for me to be admitted to the hospital, which I was told was quite long for this hospital. My hospital roommate waited nearly 30 hours. The non-covid floor that I was on was severely understaffed, with nurses caring for 2.5x as many patients as normal. The nursing staff was run ragged.

I'm not sure exactly what we should do. We can't just refuse to treat the unvaccinated (I half suggested this before, which I regret), but we need to maintain our ability to care for other people. I didn't make a conscious decision that landed me in the hospital. My roommate didn't decide to let a spider bite his foot. The stage 4 cancer patient whose "elective" surgery was postponed didn't decide to get cancer. The heart patient who can't get an ICU bed didn't decide to have a heart attack.

I could imagine having regional FEMA/national guard run COVID hospitals. But where would the staff come from? There are a limited supply of trained medical staff.

I'm just not sure what we can do that's humane and fair to everyone besides just provide incentives to get vaccinated. We probably need WWII level propaganda to convince the unvaccinated.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#184

Post by hef19898 » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

Ambolia wrote: post #138

epmaybe wrote: post #95

I think this reporting is dancing around the issue, that the vaccine supply is most concentrated in countries that have essentially reached their maximum vaccination percentage. By not providing access to those developing or smaller countries, larger countries are shooting themselves in the proverbial global foot. I don’t think countries like the US and Canada aren’t trying to do that, I just think these experts woul…

Seems more an acknowledgement that zero-Covid is never ever going to happen. At which point not sure if vaccinating outside of risk populations or to control hospitalizations if they are too high makes any sense.

If zero-covid doesn't work (it won't IMHO), necessary immunisation levels can be reached either by

a) have enough people vaccinated

or b) have enough people infected

Not sure why people come to the conclussion option b) would be a good idea...

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#185

Post by drewg123 » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #177

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hospital beds are overrun with unvaccinated Covid patients, there is less room for others Was in Jackson Hole for Labor Day weekend. They border Idaho, whose voluntarily unvaccinated have filled its hospitals. In four days I met as many nurses and one doctor who quit out of frustration. They could no longer empathise with their patients, each describing a visceral anger at tending to ICUs of COVID patients, all unv…

I was there too. I was also in Boise, and Twin Falls, ID. I went to no less than 20 doctors or nurses in the space of 2 weeks Not one doctor mentioned anything about quitting or being short-staffed.

20 doctors/nurses in 2 weeks? I hope you were taking a survey or selling medical equipment, and you were not ill.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#186

Post by jMyles » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

belltaco wrote: post #176

Ambolia wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more an acknowledgement that zero-Covid is never ever going to happen. At which point not sure if vaccinating outside of risk populations or to control hospitalizations if they are too high makes any sense.

That's like saying back in the 70s and 80s that we cannot eliminate deaths and injuries from car accidents so it's useless to have seatbelt and air bag campaigns and laws. >outside of risk populations Depends on how you define risk, 59 children have died just in Texas from Covid so far. Risk goes up with age. Every single additional vaccination helps the situation.

> 59 children have died just in Texas from Covid so far

Obviously you realize this is a controversial, at best, assertion.

What's your reasoning for why John's Hopkins wasn't able to find a single pediatric death _from_ COVID-19?

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#187

Post by thesis » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #147

mchusma wrote: post #139

The whole booster conversation seems like a political game. If you have a vaccine, then your risk of death is far below that of the flu (statistically). If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant. Kids are banned from taking anything. So I expect booster or no booster, frankly it just won't matter much at the population scale. I also don't understand the mas…

> If you don't have a vaccine by now, you want covid instead and this booster conversation is irrelevant Friend’s mother visiting from Jamaica. People in her country are dying while they wait for first shots. The voluntarily unvaccinated in America are idiots. The author’s point is there are billions of unvoluntarily unvaccinated around the world to whom these doses could go.

Yikes. Idiots? All this condescension all the time.

Maybe some people won’t get the vaccine because they already had Covid. Israeli study showed that people who had Covid are more protected than the vaccinated.

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#188

Post by peteradio » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

belltaco wrote: post #176

Ambolia wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more an acknowledgement that zero-Covid is never ever going to happen. At which point not sure if vaccinating outside of risk populations or to control hospitalizations if they are too high makes any sense.

That's like saying back in the 70s and 80s that we cannot eliminate deaths and injuries from car accidents so it's useless to have seatbelt and air bag campaigns and laws. >outside of risk populations Depends on how you define risk, 59 children have died just in Texas from Covid so far. Risk goes up with age. Every single additional vaccination helps the situation.

More like saying we should only wear seatbelts when we are in the fucking cars!

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#189

Post by logifail » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

belltaco wrote: post #180

logifail wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> flu shots are useless (I've been struggling with the following sentence for several minutes but here goes): flu vaccines aren't widely distributed - never mind recommended - for healthy young people. Countries appear to prioritise flu vaccine for older and/or more vulnerable people.[0] [0] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/flu-influenza-vac...

On that page NHS seem to make a cost tradeoff for free flu vaccine since they have to pay the costs. From the CDC >Who should get a flu vaccine this season? >Everyone 6 months and older should get a flu vaccine every season with rare exceptions. Vaccination is particularly important for people who are at higher risk of serious complications from influenza. A full listing of people at Higher Risk of Developing Flu-Rel…

> From the CDC > > Everyone 6 months and older should get a flu vaccine every season with rare exceptions

According to the Nuffield Trust[0], international flu vaccination coverage varies widely.

It appears from the chart the US is only reaching 65% - 70% of their over-65s with annual flu vaccine.

How much does it cost to get the annual flu vaccine in the US?

[0] https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/adult-flu-vaccinat...

Re: Vaccine experts: Covid-19 booster shots aren't needed now

#190

Post by bedhead » Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #164

Thlom wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has not met their maximum vaccination percentage. According to the graph I get in Google the US is stuck on around 50% fully vaccinated. Considering the head start they had on most of the world and the vaccine supplies this can't be described as anything other than a complete and utter failure on all levels.

> Considering the head start they had on most of the world and the vaccine supplies this can't be described as anything other than a complete and utter failure on all levels. That's probably why the GP comment described it as "their"(our) maximum vaccination percentage. The vaccine and virus have both been politicized too much, and too many people are obstinately refusing it as a result.

It feels like more and more people whom I would consider very partisan (either side) simply act out of spite nowadays. Whatever the other side wants, well, we're just going to unconditionally fight it. You saw this accelerate after Trump won with "Resist", an ethos that literally means to defy regardless of circumstances. And now you see the right's version of "Resist" by avoiding vaccinations. Why? Because screw them, that's why. This is just more the feeling I get about society. It's very frustrating.

I also think places like the CDC made enormous tactical errors by doing things like celebrating certain political protests, or changing language from "mothers" to "birthing people", etc. They tried to score cheap political points while sowing seeds of total distrust in the process. Just a massive mistake, all downside no upside.