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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

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331–340 of 428 posts

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#331

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

What's your view on video violence and internet porn?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A circle-cross with the Twitter bird in the middle would do.

Pre covid there was a pub chain in london that banned use of electronic devices, presumably to get people talking instead of tweeting. Went in with a colleague to have lunch and go over some diagrams. Got laptop out so we could see the diagrams and then got kicked out, had lunch down the road instead. If I’m eating out on my own I’ll read a kindle. That’s not allowed. Read a dead tree is fine though. Pathetic.

Sooo... Use a notebook or printouts?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#333
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says the internet warrior who has invented nothing.

You don't know that. Also you are trying to defend this guy (from the wikipedia article): "Environmental historian J. R. McNeill opined that Midgley "had more impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history",[21] and Bill Bryson remarked that Midgley possessed "an instinct for the regrettable that was almost uncanny"." To put his other inventions under more scrutiny seems like a smart idea,…

Your hindsight is 20/20. Congratulations.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. There's literally no-one on earth saying "I should be free to do as I want regardless of harm to others".

They don't say it out loud. But they act based on that principal.

> They don't say it out loud. But they act based on that principal.

No they don't. That's not how people think, at all. People who do horrible things are very good at rationalizing that they are actually the good guys. This is a well studied phenomenon.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#335
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I put more of the blame on the influencers because they are the ones making editorial decisions. Sure the platforms are optimizing for engagement too, but it's all content-agnostic. The influencers choose their words carefully, and they choose harmful words because it makes them more money.

I don't think it's quite fair to label it content-agnostic. I mean it sort of technically is, but practically it isn't. By pushing 'engagement' at all costs, it's essentially inevitable that all the terrible behaviors we see from 'content creators' happen. I agree that they are far from blameless, but when your entire platform is practically globally available to anybody and you only reward unsavory behavior... you'r…

> and you only reward unsavory behavior... you're going to get unsavory behavior

They don't only reward that. They reward any engagement, and some content creators have raced to the bottom in terms of creating divisive content.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#336
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the analogy between toxic media and toxic chemicals is pretty good. However, I'd put they blame for that somewhere you might find surprising: influencers. Everybody likes to hate on "big tech" these days, but if there's anyone that knows the dangers and all the ill effects but ignores them to make a profit, it's content creators. They are hyper-attuned to the way people respond to their content, and they'll do…

> Everybody likes to hate on "big tech" these days, but if there's anyone that knows the dangers and all the ill effects but ignores them to make a profit, it's content creators. This is like blaming smokers instead of Philip Morris.

I think it’s a little bit more like blaming advertisers and Hollywood for promoting smoking, rather than the producer or consumer

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#337
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that better? Can you point to a single example where a person made such a claim? Just a single example. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Smoking in public? Fracking?

> Smoking in public? Fracking?

Are you saying that people who smoke openly state that they "should be free to profit regardless of harm to others"? Who said that? Where? I already asked you to point to a single example to support this claim that certain people think this way, and you couldn't do that. That's because there's literally no people who think like that.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social media is not a toxin of any sort. To call it "toxic" is a metaphor that expresses the revulsion that people feel for the idiocies that social media channels have uncovered. So I do disagree with the liberty of the metaphor in this case. Social media is the business of providing channels of communication to people in exchange for some lucrative data. Other businesses do this too (television, radio, newspapers).…

Lead poisoning does have a clear biological mechanism, establishing it as a toxin in a way that social media does not. However, the liberty of the metaphor is well justified. Social media is a plausible (not proven, but plausible) factor in a 57% increase in teen suicide between 2008 and 2018 (noting that rates were stable for the years 2000-2008, and that 2006 was the watershed year for smartphones and social media)…

> clearly and explicitly designed to take advantage of these psychological mechanisms.

"Explicit manipulation" is a modus operandi of business and politics. At what point it becomes mephistophelian is largely determined by group conventions.

Social media accounts can become for some people an avatar of self-worth. There is even the reputational business model, i.e. linking business profiles. (Let's leave aside for now the question of streaming sex-work and voyeurism.)

But for the vast majority of users (I estimate hundreds of millions of users, on the back of a napkin), social media is not fatal or damaging. People connect, check friends' news and say hello, then disconnect.

> not proven, but plausible

We know that social media has been used in some cases for bullying and cruelty. The evidence has been tried in court. Social media has been a means of communication in these cases, like the anonymous telephone call or the stamped papermail. (The ghoulish Edgar J. Hoover had his vile FBI operation send at least one letter to MLK telling the civil-rights leader to kill himself.)[1]

The worse tendencies of human nature have of course been known to us for some time. Adam Smith wrecked the job prospects of his friend David Hume. On Usenet of yore, there were flame wars: people pursuing a quarrel because someone is wrong on the Internet.[2] Also consider a funny piece by Woody Allen about two stubborn men playing chess by stamped papermail.

Irascibility, stubbornness, cruelty, and schadenfreude joy are failings of character that are usually treated as legal.

Bullying is a problem and is explicitly punishable in some codes of conduct. To cause death is much worse, of course. It is a crime.

Bullying does happen every day, in hallways and buses and roadways and offices, among people of all ages. There are tyrannical bosses, tavern disputes, cruel remarks in sport, and the art and business of gossip. In some cases, we even applaud a great leader despite that fact that he treats people like rubbish. (I think of at least one famous figure in computing and one former elected leader of a large country.)

In short, I would not say in this case that correlation equals causation, but correlation may indicate something disturbing about the collapse of group ethics and social discourse. I find social media deplorable for the tone of people's discourse. I also don't like television or malicious text messages.

By the way, I upvoted your post. Cheers!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_lette...

[2] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Xkcd

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't say it out loud. But they act based on that principal.

Exactly. I once saw a quote from an accountant: "Don't tell me your priorities. Show me your budget and I'll tell you your priorities." Even utter sociopaths know not to talk like they don't give a shit about anybody else. The social consequences for that are too high. So if we want to understand what people care about, we can't just go with their claims about their motivations. We have to look at where they put in t…

You seem to be really going overboard with the strawman arguments here.

> So if we want to understand what people care about, we can't just go with their claims about their motivations.

I never claimed we should do that. Nobody else claimed such a thing either.

Also, I take it as concession that you were unable to provide a single example to support your claim.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. It's much more plausible that he sincerely believed lead wasn't that dangerous.

I think its somewhat reasonable that he knew it had short term issues at high concentration but believed that the body would flush it out on its own. And not that any exposure caused permanent damage.

Sure, he was willing to take some level of risk, but he certainly wasn't expecting to be hospitalized for lead poisoning.
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