Live data from Hacker News

Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

nytimes.com

321–330 of 339 posts

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it. Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. I have a daughter, now an adult, which Ritalin and/or Adderall provided real benefit. The only thing in question was ho…

The phrasing of the poster you're responding to does not discount the experience you're describing. I don't see how they could be more careful.

I find we often project or minimize opinions and positions that don't account for our pet emphases. I agree with your take.

Take an example of someone who posts solely facts in a controversial topic. Folks that disagree with the direction the facts point will ascribe all manner of negative projection to said poster. But does that reflect on the facts-poster, or on the interpreters?

Online communication is such an odd thing.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say drugging young kids with stimulants that have lifelong dependency implications as a kind of sacrifice for the greater good of the larger class is just morally reprehensible. Let's keep treatment focused on healing the individual, not drugging them into compliance. We are talking about kids here.

What do you mean with "lifelong dependency implications"? I take such medication and whenever I stop taking it for a time period, all of the side effects of the medication completely vanish. This type of medication is not addictive, actually it's a bit unpleasant, I don't think anyone would get addicted to it. And it's not like people with ADHD are rendered completely useless if they're not on their medication. We gr…

Have you tried researching the long term effects of these medications? There is plenty of scientific literature available.

Be sure to consider the age which the treatment starts. A major aspect of concern for all drug use is how it affects developing minds.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#323

Antipsychotics have horrific side effects but are useful in institutional settings to make residents/patients/inmates easier to manage - psychiatry is the tool used to legitimize drugging people without need for their consent in such settings, for the benefit of others and the institution. It makes me despondent to read an article like this as I believe there are too many perverse incentives and cultural taboos for t…

Not all antipsychotics have horrible side effects. Let’s not lose nuance in response to the terrible unethical behavior depicted here. Modern antipsychotics often do good in helping people function when they wouldn’t otherwise be able to. The illnesses they treat are ones of terror and loneliness. I will note however that there’s no purpose in them here except to force submission, and that’s abuse and spits on the go…

If you look at the article, they were not prescribing modern psychotics, but old ones like haloperidol.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any that do not have horrible side effects. That is a value judgement I perhaps arrogantly think most people who have taken or been forced to take them (including myself) would agree with, maybe some people would not regard the side effects as all that bad. Certainly they can serve a good purpose and are a good tradeoff for many people who could not function as they'd like without them. The issue is…

I've heard seroquel is lovely for sleep and seems to be really well tolerated, but I haven't tried it myself yet.

Seroquel at low doses is hardly an antipsychotic. At higher doses it blocks the receptors that are associated with AP efficacy, and at that point, the negative extrapyramidal side effects start being felt.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#325
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better for what ? Suicide rates in young population are going up for example. But even so - if your only goal is to prevent negative outcomes might as well put everyone in a coma and tube feed them - bound to get 0% crime, violence, addiction. Hard to judge quantitatively - but TBH as fucked up as my childhood was I wouldn't want to grow up in the modern system and working with the zoomer generation I'm not impressed…

You would had to really show more for me to believe the suicide rates go up because kids are not beaten enough. Extraordinary claim requires some proof. > if your only goal is to prevent negative outcomes might as well put everyone in a coma and tube feed them - bound to get 0% crime, violence, addiction. This is fairly absurd jump. Also, beating kids into obeisance makes them more likely to beat others onto obeisanc…

I doubt regular beatings work, but having authority over your child, even if it takes physical punishment to obtain is one thing I see extremely lacking with my peers who are parents.

But my point was more about comparing generations, I feel like a lot of struggles like having to learn how to control your temper or focus, are wiped away with drugs, and in general society is very good at removing historic hardships you had to overcome. On the flip side a lot of artificial stress and challenges are introduced with modern life (grade chasing since preschool, social media) - I don't feel like this would have felt meaningful to me so I don't envy the current generation of children.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#326
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense when you consider that the therapist is there to help you but only in a way that does not challenge society. You are right to not feel completely safe to discuss it, unfortunately. I'm not sure why this taboo has evolved to be so strong, though I would guess it runs very deep psychologically in peoples' fear of death and also has something to do with the potential societal implications to any culture w…

The majority of people who attempt suicide do not then go on to commit suicide. Though ironically it does mean that a suicide attempt is the strongest predictor for death by suicide - but the rate is still 1% over the successive 12 month interval.[1] There is no strong evidence that suicidal people have a genuinely held belief that they wish to stop living, as opposed to a psychiatric episode that once passed does no…

It means anything which violates the social norms and laws that undergird a society, one of which is suicide. Another might be illicit drug use, including psychedelics. Any solution or help a state-linked therapist provides must necessarily steer away, if necessary by force, from anything that involves these. This even may be if something like psychedelics could help the individual, although psychedelics are likely to become legal in the future for this purpose. Suicide in most jurisdictions is entirely illegal not excepting euthanasia and in such jurisdictions, a therapist engaging with a rational terminally ill person as you describe would not be allowed in an official capacity to have an honest discussion about euthanasia as an option for their situation.

> There is no strong evidence that suicidal people have a genuinely held belief that they wish to stop living, as opposed to a psychiatric episode that once passed does not reflect their actual world view.

I would argue that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suicidal people have a genuine held belief that they wish to stop living, in the form of genuine and sometimes successful suicide attempts. To redescribe it as a "psychiatric episode that once passed does not reflect their actual world view" is to simply negate the validity of the belief by viewing it through a medical rubric which affirms suicidality as something pathological. This is a value judgement. Compound with the complication that, as described through the comments on this post, any discussion of intent towards suicide can have severe consequences and therefore suicidal people will necessarily be coerced into denying their true beliefs of things, and must acknowledge the consensus view that their desire to kill themselves was in fact not "a genuine beliefe". That they may come at some point (possibly much later on) to have genuinely changed their mind not to kill themselves or to have kill themselves may be great but does not invalidate their previous belief at the time they were suicidal.

For comparison, imagine a society in which intent towards abortion was viewed as a pathological state of mind, and any talk towards such was met by extreme force from the state similar to that which it is for suicide, to wit: forced imprisonment, pharmaceutical intervention and koshing of a person until they no longer expressed (openly) a desire to have an abortion. A statement like "There is no strong evidence that these women have a genuinely held belief that they wish to not have their baby, as opposed to a psychiatric episode that once passed does not reflect their actual world view." may sound valid to people living under such a value system but we might recognise something more going on here.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have 2 daughters on adhd medication. I held off a long time. But finally relented. Night and day difference. Rolling around on the floor endlessly to top of class. I haven’t found one my body can tolerate for long. But it was so weird to feel normal and not this horrific agony at trying to stay on task.

Try sativa-type cannabis with a vaporizer. Steer clear of indica-type.

No thank you. I won’t go near they stuff. Even the smoke from someone else causes a severe reaction.

I do have an actual diagnosis and doctor for ADHD

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#328
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In more brutal prior days, there was corporal punishment - I was frequently caned and variously otherwise bodily punished as a child, because I was a habitual miscreant - were I a decade younger, I probably would have been drugged. Personally, I’ll take the memories of violence over being medicated for life any day of the week. Oh, and it generally worked - fear of retribution is quite the motivator.

Gentle reminder that in the good old times of beatings, these kids were more likely to end up in jails, being violent, more likely to end up addicted to drugs and so on. Not that current time is perfect, but statistically it has better results.

It was the beatings? Just last week people like you were telling us it was all leaded gas's fault. Make up your mind.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#329
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure there are many people who are no longer alive because people did not take their texts seriously. So? If they wanted to die, that's what they wanted. Do we have to forcibly be required to live in a mental institution, pumped with drugs, for the benefit of others if we don't want to be here anymore?

No one is being forced to live in a mental institution because they sent someone texts one time that expressed suicidal ideation... There aren't enough psych beds to take care of the patients with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and suicidal intent with a plan to spare any to suicidal ideation patients. The OP spent one night in a psych emergency room, was not forced to take any medication, and was released. People…

> People who are suicidal with a plan are not generally thinking clearly and are happy that they received care once they've been treated.

As if preference on this is always treatable. For example, what kind of treatment do you give a person who wants to die because they have no support network and had a stroke which rendered them disabled and homeless? What realistic treatment is going to give them hope? A bed in a state funded nursing home surrounded for the rest of their days by untrained, uncaring people who are just there for the low wage paycheck?

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#330

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not valuing my life in a private text message was enough to to get me detained by police in a facility for a night. "Doctor" threatened me with drugging just because I refused to answer some of their questions and instead insisted on a lawyer. Funny how freedoms can…

Reminds me of Élan School [1] and how kids (under 18) can be abducted with the permission of their parents and put in confinement for dubious behavioral benefits, against their wishes – sometimes with the help of the judicial system. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_School

There is a very good/gripping series of illustrations about the school drawn by one of its victims:

https://elan.school/

Post reply on HN