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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#171

Post by Karrot_Kream »

krisgee wrote: post #57
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

>Perhaps the government should open companies that are meant to lose money and are tax supported (for-loss conpanies) that compete with the industry with solutions that are good for the people but bad for business? Many government owned companies actually make a profit until private industry lobbies them into ineffectiveness. The US Post Office was profitable until a change lobbied by Fed-Ex and UPS forced them to ke…

I think this is an overly simplistic (and I've seen this argument on the internet a lot) argument. It's true that there are a lot of people, especially in Anglo countries, who oppose any policy that could allow the State to be enriched. But it's also true that there are many crappy state-owned enterprises. My family came from a developing country that used to have _most_ things run by the state, and there was widespread corruption in the government which kept service bad and prices high.

I do think it would be useful for economists to analyze the conditions under which state-run entities create good outcomes, but in the currently charged political climate, it probably won't happen.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#172

Post by [deleted] »

space_rock wrote: post #74
sonthonax wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refined oils aren't that poisonous. You could probably drink a gulp of pure octane and suffer no more than alcohol like effects and an upset stomach.

Ingestion of gasoline US CDC "350 g (12 oz.) can result in death for a 70 kg individual. As little as 10 to 15 g (less than one-half ounce) may be fatal in children. Symptoms of intoxication by ingestion of gasoline can range from vomiting, vertigo, drowsiness and confusion to loss of consciousness, convulsions, hemorrhaging of the lungs and internal organs, and death due to circulatory failure. Ingestion can cause i…

[deleted]

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#173

Post by stefan_ »

paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

Wood heating remains improbably popular (and favorably regulated). Not to mention the stupidity of diesel cars: trading a little bit less CO2 for actively poisoning the lungs of your immediate environment.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#174

Post by DangitBobby »

BurningFrog wrote: post #98
bmitc wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, within the first two months of its operation, the new plant was plagued by more cases of lead poisoning, hallucinations, insanity, and five deaths. > On October 30, 1924, Midgley participated in a press conference to demonstrate the apparent safety of TEL, in which he poured TEL over his hands, placed a bottle of the chemical under his nose, and inhaled its vapor for 60 seconds, declaring that he could do…

I think that proves he really believed what he was saying!

Or that he was willing to risk his health for wealth at everyone's expense.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#175

Post by sonthonax »

space_rock wrote: post #74
sonthonax wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refined oils aren't that poisonous. You could probably drink a gulp of pure octane and suffer no more than alcohol like effects and an upset stomach.

Ingestion of gasoline US CDC "350 g (12 oz.) can result in death for a 70 kg individual. As little as 10 to 15 g (less than one-half ounce) may be fatal in children. Symptoms of intoxication by ingestion of gasoline can range from vomiting, vertigo, drowsiness and confusion to loss of consciousness, convulsions, hemorrhaging of the lungs and internal organs, and death due to circulatory failure. Ingestion can cause i…

350g of gasoline (for a 70kg person) is a huge amount to accidentally ingest. That's an LD50 of 5g per kilo, which to put into perspective isn't really that toxic compared to ethanol which has an LD50 of about 7g per kilo.

Highly refined gasoline that you can buy in pharmacies as mineral oil is safe to put on babies skin. It's not toxic in the order of magnitude that Tetraethyl-lead is.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#176

Post by sonthonax »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #93
sonthonax wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refined oils aren't that poisonous. You could probably drink a gulp of pure octane and suffer no more than alcohol like effects and an upset stomach.

Lol no you will throw up everything in your stomach violently until it is completely empty and go to ER mostly likely. Then the doctor will have you stick around for a few hours and make sure you are okay and let you sleep off the headache. Ask me how I know (I was stupid and 10 and trying to siphon gas for my mini motorcycle for the first time, DM for me more for more details).

It sounds like you had a very upset stomach and a bad hangover.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#177

Post by ManuelKiessling »

JohnWhigham wrote: post #162
paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

PFAS and phthalates are 2 of the biggest things. An working federal government would have banned these decades ago. Also, plastics touching food ever. "Food grade" plastic is a myth sold to us by the plastics industry. This one is going to take longer though.

„"Food grade" plastic is a myth” – do you know any reliable sources where I could read up the details?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#178

Post by userbinator »

sonthonax wrote: post #23
nso95 wrote: post #7

Gasoline is poison in general though

Refined oils aren't that poisonous. You could probably drink a gulp of pure octane and suffer no more than alcohol like effects and an upset stomach.

You're probably thinking of mineral oil, which is indeed used as a laxative. But it's much less volatile since it consists of much higher alkanes than the C8, octane, in gasoline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_paraffin_(drug)

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#179

Post by DenisM »

paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

  - Sugar.
  - Social networks.
  - The coddling of the mind.
I think you will find that all three have vicious cycles built into them.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#180

Post by jabl »

nate_meurer wrote: post #170
Neil44 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, not to mention the lubricant properties of the lead for the valve seats and guides.

This is a myth. Lead has no lubricative value in engines, and in fact causes damage. From https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/... : "The temperature for Lead deposits to form tend to be favourable around the spark plugs (as the whole mixture is quite cool before the flame starts to propagate) and on the exhaust valve stem (as the mixture cools after combustion). The problem is that the deposit…

Late in WWII very high octane 115/145 aviation gasoline (read: lots and lots of TEL) became available for Allied frontline fighters, giving a performance boost. When cruising, pilots had to periodically rush the engines to full power in order to burn off the lead deposits on the spark plugs. And the spark plugs had to be replaced after every flight.
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