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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#161

Post by [deleted] »

Neil44 wrote: post #141
jabl wrote: post #103

There are many octane boosters in addition to lead and ethanol. Like N-methyl aniline, ethers like MTBE and ETBE, and modifying the gasoline composition to replace low-octane components with high-octane components like aromatics, and so-called super alkylate. Most of these have disadvantages of their own, and tend to be more expensive. So TEL won for a reason. Particularly if you ignore things like diffuse health eff…

Yes, not to mention the lubricant properties of the lead for the valve seats and guides.

[deleted]

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#162

Post by JohnWhigham »

paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

PFAS and phthalates are 2 of the biggest things. An working federal government would have banned these decades ago.

Also, plastics touching food ever. "Food grade" plastic is a myth sold to us by the plastics industry. This one is going to take longer though.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#163

Post by matheusmoreira »

jvanderbot wrote: post #137
3grdlurker wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only wish that more people realized that we didn’t have to start with something so destructive before we could “get better eventually”.

Implying we would know about all possible destructiveness at time of invention.

They knew. They chose to do it anyway because it was the better deal for them. Couldn't care less about the people they harmed.

In my country, this is called criminal imprudence. If this isn't a crime in the US, it should be.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#164

Post by BenjiWiebe »

sudosysgen wrote: post #15
G3rn0ti wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ethanol was so effective as an anti-knocking agent why didn’t gas stations just mix ethanol with petrol and sold that fuel with profit? Ethanol is cheaper and much safer to manufacture then tetraethyllead. But they didn’t… I am not an expert on combustion engines but the biggest problem with ethanol in the early days was it polluted the engine with water that it absorbed as a water soluble organic compound. Those…

Actually mixing ethanol with petrol is a pretty common thing... The main issue stations won't do it unless compelled is that it will reduce gas mileage slightly. You don't want to be the company selling gas that has a lower mileage. If they could sell it at a lower price that would be something. The thing is that you need a lot more ethanol than tetraethyllead, so it actually does end up being more expensive, for the…

And at least in small engines, it's common to have an aluminum block with cast iron sleeves, so the combustion chamber is still walled with rustable metal.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#165

Post by jabl »

tjohns wrote: post #133
jabl wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you specifically mean the new 100 octane unleaded mentioned in the article the parent linked to? If not, it could be some lower octane unleaded formulation. There are a couple of standards for these, but they have never caught on.

It’s UL94, so lower octane (94 octane, as the name suggests). However, this is still fine for lower performance aircraft that make up the majority of the GA fleet. There’s been a lot of interest in it, especially in light of the recent discussions to close RHV in San Jose. I know one of the flight schools here just switched all their aircraft over to UL94. Higher performance aircraft will need UL100, which is still n…

> It’s UL94, so lower octane (94 octane, as the name suggests). However, this is still fine for lower performance aircraft that make up the majority of the GA fleet.

The standard story seems to be that 20% of the planes burn 80% of the fuel, and need all the octane in 100LL. And GA is such a small market that airfields can't justify having multiple fuel grades available, so 100LL everywhere it is.

But yes, nice to hear that UL94 is nonetheless available in some places.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#166

Post by [deleted] »

paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

[deleted]

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#167

Post by Karrot_Kream »

nostrademons wrote: post #116
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

Public opinion is the weak point in many systems that are supposed to converge to an optimal socially-beneficial equilibrium. The way competition and free markets are supposed to work, someone else would've introduced ethanol as an anti-knock additive, sold gasoline cheaper (and healthier!), and everyone would've benefitted. But Kettering & Midgley went on an extensive PR campaign after their invention to convince th…

I've always argued that modern (late-stage?) capitalism and state socialism have similar failure modes. In state socialism, the Politburo controlled economic distribution and used their power to enrich themselves and their buddies. In many modern capitalist systems politicians are captured by economic interests and so large corporations play the same role that the Politburo played in state socialist systems.

The failure modes always center around the capture of popular opinion, whether through explicit buy-in from the state or through aggressive PR campaigns.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#168

Post by slavik81 »

josho wrote: post #147
air7 wrote: post #6

> The most compelling option was actually ethanol. But from the perspective of GM, Kitman wrote, ethanol wasn’t an option. It couldn’t be patented and GM couldn’t control its production. And oil companies like Du Pont "hated it," he wrote, perceiving it to be a threat to their control of the internal combustion engine. I'm generally an avid beliver in free markets as an agent for positive change, so these types of "r…

> Perhaps the government should open companies that are meant to lose money Canada used to have crown corporations (until conservative governments sold them off to do a one time balancing of the budget). When done well the crown Corp. serves a valuable purpose. The government no longer needs to rely on industry to tell them what is needed. Eg. In this scenario the crown Corp. refinery would have their own scientists…

There are nearly 50 Canadian crown corporations, including the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), the Canadian Deposit Insurance Corporation (CDIC), and the Bank of Canada. There was even a new one created recently. The government created the Trans Mountain Corporation when they nationalized the Trans Mountain Pipeline.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#169

Post by BenjiWiebe »

whatshisface wrote: post #146
inglor_cz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fairly trivial to avoid drinking gasoline. For example, I managed it 100 per cent of the time so far, and I am 43. It is not as trivial to avoid breathing in lead when you live around cars that use leaded gasoline.

Toxic fumes from burning unleaded gasoline are actually a big problem and your car has a lot of expensive catalytic stuff to limit them.

How many of the toxic fumes from unleaded gasoline bioaccumulate though? As far as I know, CO and NOx do not bioaccumulate. The other stuff, partially burned/unburnt hydrocarbons, I don't know about.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#170

Post by nate_meurer »

Neil44 wrote: post #141
jabl wrote: post #103

There are many octane boosters in addition to lead and ethanol. Like N-methyl aniline, ethers like MTBE and ETBE, and modifying the gasoline composition to replace low-octane components with high-octane components like aromatics, and so-called super alkylate. Most of these have disadvantages of their own, and tend to be more expensive. So TEL won for a reason. Particularly if you ignore things like diffuse health eff…

Yes, not to mention the lubricant properties of the lead for the valve seats and guides.

This is a myth. Lead has no lubricative value in engines, and in fact causes damage. From https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/...:

"The temperature for Lead deposits to form tend to be favourable around the spark plugs (as the whole mixture is quite cool before the flame starts to propagate) and on the exhaust valve stem (as the mixture cools after combustion). The problem is that the deposits are electrically conductive, which shorts out the spark plug - and corrosive, which can start to attack the metal of the valve stems."

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