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Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

nytimes.com

261–270 of 339 posts

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#261
Is there any doubt that there is an over-consumption of medical products? This is not just limited to nursing homes or mental institutions. The chronic consumption of pain killers, sleeping pills, anti depressants etc is seems endemic to developed countries.

Of course there's the angle of financial incentives, but to me it seems that modern society has chosen the easy path to deal with the health implications of our modern way of life - namely popping pills - instead of taking a hard look at our health problems and working toward long term sustainable solutions, especially for environmental problems.

The current COVID-19 crisis is a case in point. I'll risk being ground to a pulp by the HN community and say that IMO vaccines are one solution but not necessarily the best. To date they have provided neither herd immunity (very hard to reach on a global scale), nor long term protection (look at Israel).

A better solution would be providing a better environment - cleaner air and water, a less stressful life style, and better integration of human habitats with natural ecosystems. We know that the virus kills mostly people with pre existing conditions. A better long term treatment would have been to reduce those pre existing conditions - diabetes, obesity, heart and lung diseases. This can be done through better food, less work, more physical activity, and even more social involvement.

Sadly, modern society demands short term gratification over long term sustainable sobriety.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#262

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not valuing my life in a private text message was enough to to get me detained by police in a facility for a night. "Doctor" threatened me with drugging just because I refused to answer some of their questions and instead insisted on a lawyer. Funny how freedoms can…

I picked up my wife yesterday after a 72 hour hold at an in-patient center. I’m so glad that she legally had to be there. She tried to commit suicide Sunday night and spent Monday and Tuesday in the ER. It’s been a horrible week for all of us. The behavioral health place she was at was not perfect, but she would not be where she is right now if it weren’t for her having to be there. For years I have told myself that…

That sounds like an extremely rough time. I hope you and your wife are alright.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#263
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Schools too. My mum spent two decades as a primary schol teacher, and it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are, at least in some cases, administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it.

Because that child with behavioral issues is sharing a classroom with 10 to 20 other children. It has never been fair to everyone else to put up with the issues on the one. In more brutal prior days, they'd be expelled and become the parent's problem. Now, they get medicated into compliance. It isn't fair to anyone, neither that child nor the others, that they get streamed in with everyone and everyone has to figure…

In more brutal prior days, there was corporal punishment - I was frequently caned and variously otherwise bodily punished as a child, because I was a habitual miscreant - were I a decade younger, I probably would have been drugged.

Personally, I’ll take the memories of violence over being medicated for life any day of the week.

Oh, and it generally worked - fear of retribution is quite the motivator.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#264
post #247
post #224

So in the USA today we have: 1) Both adults working long hours to move up the corporate ladder, neglecting their kids and their elderly parents in order to afford the rent etc. 2) Kids are stuck in public school as a glorified "day care center", and if they fidget or can't sit still they are diagnosed with ADHD and given amphetamines like adderal and ritalin. Boys are diagnosed with ADHD more than girls, for perhaps…

Just curious: Has a government project involving throwing trillions of dollars at something ever worked out as intended? It’s a serious question, I’m trying to think of a time it’s easier worked and I can’t.

The Apollo program comes to mind, although I don’t know if that hits the “trillion” mark, even adjusted for inflation.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#265
Not really on-topic but related. Until 10 years ago in Germany there used to be compulsory military service but alternatively it was possible to work instead in social services of which nursing homes were a large quantity. I think coincidentally this was a good way to let not completely indifferent people work in not really great circumstances. Probably the dynamics there aren't the greatest, low pay and some people are probably just there because it was easy to apply. Apart from the dirty work I think nursing homes could be actually great places for the inhabitants and so much better than living isolated which is more common the older people get.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#266

Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Was really surprised (better word-traumatized) that one flippant casual mention of not valuing my life in a private text message was enough to to get me detained by police in a facility for a night. "Doctor" threatened me with drugging just because I refused to answer some of their questions and instead insisted on a lawyer. Funny how freedoms can…

>Phony Diagnoses not just at nursing homes, also in mental facilities. Schools too. My mum spent two decades as a primary schol teacher, and it's an open secret in that industry that Ritalin and other behavioural drugs are, at least in some cases, administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class - not necessarily for the child receiving it.

> administered for the benefit of the teacher and other students in the class

I agree that it is wrong.

But the protection of other students is not a bad thing in principle. It is a thing that is often missing. Yes the school should help problem kids. And absolutely, the school should make sure other kids don't get victimized in the process.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not necessarily does not mean never, so be careful of a claim like that, and maybe back it up. That's definitely correct. It can be a great help for some children, and some teachers (maybe even the majority) do make carefully considered decisions where the primary concern is for the welfare of the child receiving the drugs. Other times, though, they just want some ratbag kid to STFU so they can get on with their job…

Every `ratbag kid` is someones child, someone who's brain who has been at odds with the expectations foisted upon them their entire life, and who may be tired of failing but can't figure out how not do. It makes me sad to read comments like this.

But overall such a kid disrupts the whole class so we have worse outcomes for the whole group, kid included if the teaching can’t continue

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#268
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that child with behavioral issues is sharing a classroom with 10 to 20 other children. It has never been fair to everyone else to put up with the issues on the one. In more brutal prior days, they'd be expelled and become the parent's problem. Now, they get medicated into compliance. It isn't fair to anyone, neither that child nor the others, that they get streamed in with everyone and everyone has to figure…

In more brutal prior days, there was corporal punishment - I was frequently caned and variously otherwise bodily punished as a child, because I was a habitual miscreant - were I a decade younger, I probably would have been drugged. Personally, I’ll take the memories of violence over being medicated for life any day of the week. Oh, and it generally worked - fear of retribution is quite the motivator.

Gentle reminder that in the good old times of beatings, these kids were more likely to end up in jails, being violent, more likely to end up addicted to drugs and so on.

Not that current time is perfect, but statistically it has better results.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#269
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while getting a 'wellness check' every fifteen minutes where a nurse shakes you awake. Actually, speaking of practices that are implemented for the convenience of administrators rather than the benefit of the patient... There is a popular belief that, if you have a head injury, you must stay awake because losing consciousness is dangerous. This is completely false. Your urge to sleep reflects the fact that that is…

"convenience" is a hell of a word to use here when the alternative is that medical professionals would have no way to know if your condition is worsening. Which is to say, if you want to sleep you can basically just go home for all the good they'll be able to do. If it's inconvenient to you then you always have the option of checking out of the hospital whenever you want: you are always (except in psychiatric hold ca…

> the alternative is that medical professionals would have no way to know if your condition is worsening.

There are other ways; they are more expensive, less accurate, and possibly more dangerous to the patient, but they exist.

But if you go back and read my comment again, you'll see that I'm talking about the popular belief that losing consciousness is detrimental to the patient. It isn't; it is beneficial. The doctor may have good reason to keep the patient awake anyway, because, if the patient suddenly starts to die, he might be able to do something about it.

But if you are not in that situation -- if there's nothing you can do if your injured friend suddenly starts to die -- then you should not be trying to keep your friend awake.

Re: Phony diagnoses hide high rates of drugging at nursing homes

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution in my opinion to this problem is to permit euthanasia and for assisted suicide to become culturally accepted as an alternative to a drawn out death of dementia in a care home. The quality of life for many (not all) care home residents who are on these sorts of drug regimens is dire and in reality not entirely for their benefit, as is apparent to everyone including those responsible for oversight like Med…

Speaking from experience, people are not nearly as enthusiastic to make the decision to kill themselves (as dementia sets in) as every likes to imagine that they will be themselves. I have seen multiple cases of people who - in healthy middle age - made bold statements ("just shoot me when I get like that"), who later went on to write documents insisting that "all measures be taken to preserve my life". So not even "…

> I don't know why this is, but dementia is often a continuum, and the decision making that people make seems to change in early dementia.

More likely it is that theoretical death sometime in the future is something much different then real death sometime soon. Which is much different to actually doing it and following up.

The exact same thing happens in physical danger situations. People are brave and daring and when faced with actual situation, the start making real decision differently.

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