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Sayings of Spartan women

penelope.uchicago.edu

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Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#191

Post by CyanBird »

throwaway20371 wrote: post #126
fishtoaster wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iirc that series addresses this critique in some depth, pointing out that sparta was particularly awful even by the standards of other greek states. Another interesting bit was how it's historically rare for slave-owning societies to have more than 50% of their population enslaved. Since sparta was closer to 80% enslaved people, they relied on particularly brutal methods to keep down the regular slave revolts, making…

> Another interesting bit was how it's historically rare for slave-owning societies to have more than 50% of their population enslaved Probably worth noting, then, that in 1860, South Carolina and Mississippi had over 50% population enslaved, and four more states over 40% population enslaved. Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations, I'm curious whethe…

> Considering that American-owned slaves were treated much crueler on average than Ancient slave populations

I'd recommend you to actually read on the absolute horror the Helots had to go through

Only French Haití or Congo Free State can come to mind as being similar, the Helots were very different even from other Greek states, let alone Rome, Egypt or Cartage

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#192

Post by thaumasiotes »

Larrikin wrote: post #162
thaumasiotes wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Slaves could also buy their freedom, and were sometimes even given their freedom as a gift. Again, this is not a difference between ancient slavery and American slavery. Why do you mention it? > Of course, there were cruel masters as well as kind ones. But prior to the African slave trade, the institution itself wasn't remotely as brutal or morally abhorrent, because it wasn't built on a social commitment to racism…

You're arguing that exceptions and rare occurrences in American slavery are equivalent to the norms in Rome and for some reason trying to make American slavery seem like it really wasn't all that bad. Your style of responding also makes it seem like you're arguing the point that slavery wasn't all that bad in the US from a very specific view point

They're rare occurrences in American slavery and they're also rare occurrences in Rome.

As some other people have pointed out, if you look at objective indices of quality of life, the United States generally comes out as possibly the best place in all of history you could have been enslaved.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#193

Post by nestorD »

orange_joe wrote: post #73
dustintrex wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the 5% of Spartan women who were full citizens, perhaps. However, Sparta was an extremely unequal society, with some 85% either slaves or helots (also slaves, but owned by the state, not individuals).

The named women aren’t helots and it’s unlikely the unnamed women would be helots either. I was under the impression The only group we refer to as Spartan are that minority population of elites as the rest were referred to as helots (who were also unable to serve in their military)

That is the point of the comment I believe: pointing out that we tend to ignore the vast majority of the inhabitants of Sparta when we think of Spartans.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#194

Post by tacomonstrous »

hutzlibu wrote: post #140
brezelgoring wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They still would have to fear, that someone leaks the video of it Is it really a deterrent, though? You said yourself that it'd be scapegoated and its not like they depend on good PR to keep their goodies, they own the country after all. Also I can't help but wonder what these people talk about behind closed doors, do they really play by the same rules you and I would be held accountable to behind closed doors?

"they own the country after all." They still need good relationships with the west. Open slavery would not be tolerated.

But it is already. Lots of otherwise heinous activities are tolerated just fine by the West. When was the last time the name Khashoggi found its way into Western mainstream media?

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#195

Post by rolandog »

throwdecro wrote: post #112
jacknews wrote: post #30

The Spartan culture perished.

And yet here we are reading their best jokes, many centuries later. > One woman, observing her son coming towards her, inquired, "How fares our country?" And when he said, "All have perished," she took up a tile and, hurling it at him, killed him, saying, "And so they sent you to bear the bad news to us!"

I wonder if what we're reading is in part glorified propaganda of what an exemplary duty towards your country you should have.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#196

Post by Gibbon1 »

some_random wrote: post #57

Reminder that Spartan society was nightmarishly abusive to every single member from its slave class to its ruling class in the name of military supremacy, which they failed at. The only thing they were truly successful at was propaganda, which still dominates the way they are looked at today.

I remember something a friend that got a masters in history said. Peoples often define themselves relative historical empires and their own contemporary enemies. As a result they have an incentive to play up both.

I've wondered about the Spartans, they conquered and enslaved some of their neighbors. And kept them that was for 200 years or something. Probably meant they weren't able to manage anything more than that.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#197

Post by int_19h »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #161
spaced-out wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The idea that "Sparta" was close to "80% enslaved people" is confused and I hold the author of the linked article responsible for not clarifying the confusion. ... >The people inhabiting the greater area of the Lacedeamonian city-state, the inhabitants of the settlements in Laconia and Messinia, were never referred to in any ancient text as "Spartans" or "Lacedaemones" and they were only referred to, to the extent t…

There is no such thing as "The entire Spartan state". There is (well, was) the city-state of Lacedaemon and the city of Sparta. The two are confused because Lacedaemon is often synechdochically called "Sparta" and the people of the city of Sparta are usually called "Lacedaemones" in ancient sources. But the people in Laconia and Messinia (not just Messinia) were "helots", not "Spartans", not "Lacedeaemones" and not a…

In modern parlance, "Sparta" refers to the entire polity, not just the city.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#198

Post by int_19h »

ianbicking wrote: post #20
herio wrote: post #7

On the topic of Spartan societey in general, a really good read is https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/ by Dr. Bret Deveraux. Long read but well worth it for interested people.

Great series! I came out with the feeling that the Spartans were like the genteel Antebellum plantation owners of Greece: seemingly noble and stoic, but in reality terribly cruel, corrupted, and decadent.

It's worse. Sparta is basically the first proto-fascist state in history (or, at least, the first recorded as such).

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#199

Post by int_19h »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #11

I don’t think Sparta was as cruel and callous as portrayed. I think our view of Sparta is influenced by two main things: 1. Spartan propaganda. It was in Sparta’s interest to portray themselves as crazy, devoted warriors who relished the thought of dying for their country. How would you feel going up against a bunch of guys who would rather die on the field of battle than go home in defeat and have their own mothers…

We do have plenty of evidence wrt their treatment of helots (crypteia etc). Which is honestly all one needs to make a judgment on cruelty.

Re: Sayings of Spartan women

#200

Post by int_19h »

brazzy wrote: post #101
marcosdumay wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that goes for every commentary on ancient societies. Unless it's explicitly about slaves and outcasts, it's about the at most 10% of the society that wasn't. At some point the Romans got more people to participate on their society, but that's centuries after any of that.

> Unless it's explicitly about slaves and outcasts, it's about the at most 10% of the society that wasn't. This is absolutely not true. Pretty much no other society in history actually held more than 80% of the population enslaved like Sparta did. Rome certainly never did, nor did the other Greek states of the era.

It should also be noted that in Sparta, the Spartan class was outright prohibited from any productive labor.
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