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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

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291–300 of 538 posts

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#291
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) "Last fall, the latest war game was based on a Chinese biological-weapon attack that swept through US bases and warships in the Indo-Pacific region" These are superfluous conditions (i.e. predicting bioweapons), and of course, and you're not going to hear about the 'real' results. And of course it ignores the after effects. 2) Defenders have considerable advantage in that situation, especially with a water gap. Th…

2) A giant smokescreen? Creeping (missile) barrage of the beach? There are plenty of ways to make it hard to target anything on a beach. Air cover and missile defense will be a big deal. 3) You mean the civilian population will fight to the death? Absolutely no way that's true. Russia showed the way in Crimea: offer incentives to those who support the "liberation"; it both erodes defender support and gives the attack…

2) If you've seen these type of landings, you know that 'smoke screens' are not an area cover, just some very local cover. They can be accounted for.

Missiles barrages are not particularly useful unless they have some kind of targeting ability that we don't know about. There are not enough missiles, same for artillery. They will be able to hit communications centres and established defences, but as I said, if there is a '2 man team weapon' - and Taiwan can actually deploy them, the landings will be painful.

3) I don't agree with the Crimea Taiwan comparison.

  a) 1/2 of Crimeans were pro-Russian, the rest not necessarily nationalist, or prepared. There was no material military defence of Crimea, Ukraine is poor, corrupt, and uncoordinated. Crimea is fairly sparsely populated, and nobody in the world cares about it, other than the fact it was 'taken'.

  b) Taiwan is a rich, highly populated country, a strong sense of identity even if their a Pro Mainland nationalists, there are millions otherwise. They wealthy, very well prepared, very well organized. They have weapons, training a political cause. Taiwan is a mid-sized economy 'that matters'.
If CCP completely overruns Taiwan in a very heavy-handed way, with visible footprint everywhere (tanks rolling through most areas), then there might be a lack of an uprising.

But if there is any coordinated attempt by Taiwan to prepare for that, and any material ability for fighters to operate, there will be ongoing fighting.

5) I think you're misunderstanding the 'reaction'.

Yes, if CCP did 'Take Taiwan' - then there's probably no way anyone would uproot them directly. Unless there was an ongoing civil uprising etc. - then it's going to belong to China.

But there would be a 1) Geopolitical re-orientation like there never has been and 2) Americans do not rollover when there is blood involved. If China 'sinks a US ship' then 'they will pay' probably a disproportionately heavy price.

'Asian NATO' will form under completely new auspices: India, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, Korea etc. are now witnessing the China Dragon with a military conflict and so their fear escalates.

To your point about 'Neutrality' - Singapore might be, but not others, like India, Japan, Korea, and Arab countries which the US has incredible power over.

The 'South China Sea' probably becomes the forum for retribution, and I can see a multinational force, led by the US declaring that area 'open seas' and basically attacking any Chinese forces there. That'd be one way for the US to get their 'pound of flesh' to save face.

Pan Pacific Trade v2 would surely happen for the same reasons - it was going to happen, the only reason it did not was Trump, and now that he's killed it, it's just too hard to get going again. But a Taiwan invasion would trigger that. The 'possibly neutral' countries on the military side would more likely join this - their 'neutrality' is mostly based on fear of China, not fear of the West.

A Taiwan invasion might probably mean immediate trade war between the US and China, with the rest of the world dragged in.

And the more global geopolitical repercussions would be a little bit similar to the Cold War. The US/EU/UK/India/Japan/Korea+Others 'side' would put immense pressure on the system to try to isolate China.

Again, yes, I think China would end up keeping Taiwan, but it's the 'realignment' outside China that is the real impact.

Anyhow - direct invasion of Taiwan would be a big deal.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#292
post #259
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well apart from over 70 years of mostly stable government (with Tiananmen square being the exception) they are broadly recognized by most countries and the UN and have been for close to 50 years. There's little evidence of support in China or even in Taiwan for the idea that the Taiwan government are the legitimate government of mainland China, and Taiwanese ambition is pretty much limited in practical terms to self…

Fair - perhaps because all opposing voices have been disappeared… it is after all one party.

Talk to Chinese emigrants. Plenty don't support the CCP as the government of China. Few support Taiwan as having any claim.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in…

> Absolutely nothing, that's what. Hundreds of thousands were massacred by the Viet Cong after the US left, and hundreds of thousands more died in the ensuing refugee crisis.

And millions of civilians died during the war itself…

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has been losing all war games where it defends Tawain against China. https://nypost.com/2021/03/11/us-war-games-over-china-threat... It is not okay to assume USA supremacy against adversaries anymore. Why Americans still do business with China is astounding to me.

Wargames are designed to be lost. It's not as useful to say "welp we stomped all over them" as it is to push the forces being tested further and further until they break, then fixing or compensating where it broke and pushing even further. Wargames aren't constrained by reality, and the game's opposing force may be more powerful than in reality. Just hearing that the US lost a wargame doesn't mean anything without kn…

It's an accurate portrayal. The US also made wargames where it won against China, that required future weapons systems against present-day China.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but you can also examine recent US defense proposals / thinktank wonks gaming out indo pacific strategy, i.e. AGILE deployment in Japan, hosting IRBMs in region. The overwhelming pattern and prevailing consensus for those that follow the space is that despite proposals being aspirational / borderline geopolitical fantasy, US blobs aren't even pretending to pursue strategies that explicitly defend TW anymore. Fo…

Japan would care a lot if China made a move on Taiwan. They recently strengthened defense ties there. Wouldn't just be the U.S. Oh, and two of the above mentioned countries have real blue water navies that can go anywhere to cut supply lines like say, oil from the Middle East. One does not.

There is absolutely nothing that Japan could do.

Cutting oil from the ME would not be enough. China would ration oil and increase imports from Russia massively as well as reactivate domestic oil production, it would be great for the environment, China would carry on, and the US would make a lot of enemies.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#296
post #222
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is, the CCP sees Taiwan as theirs when in reality China belongs to Taiwan. What on earth is this supposed to mean? I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch.

> I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch. That’s exactly what the Chinese government is doing though. Isn’t that a bit of a stretch too? China claims Taiwan just as Taiwan (more or less seriously, but I doubt with any will to ever try and recover it) claims China. Or more like they both claim to be the legitimate government of greater China.

>> I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch.

> That’s exactly what the Chinese government is doing though. Isn’t that a bit of a stretch too?

Yes it is.

Doesn't make the OP's comment any less surprising through.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#297
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) "Last fall, the latest war game was based on a Chinese biological-weapon attack that swept through US bases and warships in the Indo-Pacific region" These are superfluous conditions (i.e. predicting bioweapons), and of course, and you're not going to hear about the 'real' results. And of course it ignores the after effects. 2) Defenders have considerable advantage in that situation, especially with a water gap. Th…

Piece by piece sounds good. But after Xi and the rest of the old men who run the country kick the can, I find it hard to believe next gen Chinese leaders will care about Taiwan as much. Whats the upside to them for all this drama?

Taiwan is the #1 foreign policy issue of China and maybe a top 3 long term goal - they consider it existential to their existence.

China is an ethnocentric state, they have long memories and they plan for things.

Xi is definitely more aggressive than the others, but China basically will be trying to 'get Taiwan back forever'.

Frankly, the 'long term solution' if Taiwan remains free, may be something like a 'One China' where Taiwan is actually completely independent. Maybe even Tibet and HK. That would probably only happen if China fell apart, there were wars, and we had this Peace Agreement where the world nominally recognized China as 'One Entity' even if they were actually completely different nation states. That is obviously not likely to happen but aside from a Chinese->Taiwan invasion I don't see how union happens.

The 'Taiwan Issue' is totally nonnegotiable to China, any attempt to bring the issue up in foreign policy discussions would have the Chinese Officials walk out in anger. As far as they are concerned 'Taiwan is China and There Is No Discussion' about it.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#298
post #5

I really wish the US and Europe would get *lls and punish China for breaking the treaty with Hong Kong and the UK

If the US or a European state signed a treaty with the UK under the conditions that the UK imposed on China, would you call for the US to be punished for breaking that treaty?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#299
post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

> I fear Taiwan will soon be conquered by China, not by force but suppression and economic ties.

A majority in Taiwan (two-thirds) are against unification, and that's hardended further after what's happened in HongKong. This is especially so among young people, who mostly also identify as being exclusively Taiwanese. Support for unification mostly comes from KMT, who are older and identify as Taiwanese and Chinese. As that generation fades away, these ratios will tilt even further.

For most young Taiwanese, Mainland China has nothing to offer for them to want unification.

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