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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#931
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble finding any state where a standard drivers license currently requires being fingerprinted. Texas did it for a little while but stopped in 2015. Some specialty licenses require it, like a commercial license to carry hazardous materials.

"REAL ID" requires fingerprints, which will soon be required to fly.

I got a REAL ID several months ago and definitely didn't get fingerprinted in the process.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#932
Some people say that the Taliban have won after the inevitable defeat in Afghanistan. I think they won 20 years ago when we introduced a massive billion dollar security theatre while cutting down our liberties some people hate so much, terrorists and domestic actors alike. That was an incredible victory.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#933

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are pretty good at death counts, it's easy. All the data is there. Tied to anonymised health condition as aggregates. The problem is how do we even start to evaluate the cost of prevention. Measures? We have equipment and labour costs, that's easy to measure but the data is not made available. But then what is the opportunity cost on those who are inflicted the measures. A person goes on holiday and can perhaps br…

Strong door to flight deck, and policy change to keep door closed and locked, eliminated hijacking risk. Everything else is an expensive show which air travellers apparently enjoy. They keep paying for it.

They don't enjoy it. It's mandated, and the cost isn't itemised on the ticket fare. If each and every traveller knew the cost of airport security measures put on them, more would complain, the most drastic airports may start to be avoided on principle. But we aren't in a capitalist regime where transparency and obligation to inform accurately is enforced. It's authoritarian capitalism. Pay up, or find yourself excluded from the show.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#934
post #913

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They for sure took your fingerprints in California. It's required to get a license. Search this for fingerprint: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/california-driver-handboo... You may just not remember because it's electronic.

And it was 20 years ago...

I got my license in California in 1993 and it was required then too. I remember because we made fun of how the driver handbook said, "you must provide your thumbprint, or your fingerprint if you have no thumbs".

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#935
post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) That a lot of allergic reactions come from actually touching a dog or having the dog touch something; they don't need to leave fur behind for that to happen. 2) That licking hair/fur releases the same amount of dander, whether your shedding fur, hair, or neither. Matter is conserved. 3) That clumps of fur are easy to avoid.

Those are fair points, but I’m not convinced that fur doesn’t have an impact. Anecdotally, I have a mild cat allergy and own a cat. Vacuuming our sofa regularly makes a huge difference, as it gets rid of the fur stuck to it. It goes from feeling scratchy to totally fine. Maybe clumps of fur are common with super fluffy pets? Ours is a shorthair and shedding leaves single hairs lying around. Matter is conserved, sure,…

I'm less concerned about fur with dander stuck to it then simply furniture with dander stuck to it.

Three things to consider:

1) You can't see dander.

2) Vacuuming helps with pollens, and with dander from animals without fur too.

3) You have mild allergies. Others have stronger ones. I have no scientific basis for this, but I suspect sometimes, the immune system goes into maximum overdrive.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#936

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people with severe immune deficiencies that any disease they catch could kill them. Why aren't you wearing a full body haz mat suit to protect them? Do you think people with immune deficiencies lives are worth less and its okay to kill them? Where do you draw the line where it's okay to kill some people with your bodily diseases but not others?

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I think wearing a mask is a reasonable accommodation and barely an inconvenience. Same goes for FDA-approved vaccines. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't always work in the real world, so your hazmat scenario just sounds silly.

Let me summarize your argument.

"Your haz mat argument is silly because I say it is. My argument is not silly because I say it's not."

This absolute state of critical thinking in America...

I can't wait till the media stops covering covid and everyone forgets that covid exists because they're on to the next thing the medium easily manipulates them over.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, some definitions are crappy. Do we have a word for "imperialist government uses violence against people to achieve political goals"? Because "it's not terrorism because it's a state" is always gonna stink of trying to dodge the topic on a technicality.

This is either war or war crimes depending on what exactly happened. There seems to be a trend of calling every terrifying event “terrorism.” People sometimes colloquially refer to even non-political mass shootings as terrorism. I believe it’s important to separate different types of mass violence. For example a gang-related mass shooting might be de-escalated by a mediator engaging the belligerents, whereas a war cr…

>This is either war or war crimes depending on what exactly happened.

Huh. Do we call operation condor a war crime?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong door to flight deck, and policy change to keep door closed and locked, eliminated hijacking risk. Everything else is an expensive show which air travellers apparently enjoy. They keep paying for it.

They don't enjoy it. It's mandated, and the cost isn't itemised on the ticket fare. If each and every traveller knew the cost of airport security measures put on them, more would complain, the most drastic airports may start to be avoided on principle. But we aren't in a capitalist regime where transparency and obligation to inform accurately is enforced. It's authoritarian capitalism. Pay up, or find yourself exclud…

Good points on tax transparency. Add-ons are itemized on air tickets in USA, though things like airport remodeling costs are opaque.

Expensive 'raise arms under arrest' full body scanners aren't advertised as opt-in by TSA, but they are voluntary. I always go through standard metal detector only.

Maybe the masses don't care enough about cost/ benefit and allow career beauracrats to run wild designing 'security'.

Did you know the food store workers near the gates walk around TSA screening at most airports? Crazy.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#939

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you have all this talk of "bump stocks" and "ghost guns" and "assault weapons" and whatnot, but it's all just smoke and mirrors to assuage fears. The goal isn't to save lives. The goal is to assuage fears. I don't take any gun policy seriously that purports to save lives if it isn't focused on handguns and suicides. It's also politics. If you actually wanted to solve the problem, well, like two thirds of US fire…

> improve mental health I think that this is a poor target. How do you set out directly targeting mental health? What are the biggest causes of mental health issues? https://www.cdc.gov/mentalhealth/learn/index.htm CDC lists causes such as childhood trauma, trauma from medical issues, biological factors, alcohol or drugs, and loneliness or isolation. How do you set out to tackle loneliness or isolation? How do you he…

>How do you set out to tackle loneliness or isolation?

Not having your media contributing to hyper-polarization of your populace through algorithm enforced bubbling, or riling them up through fear mongering helps. Lack of public works may also be a contributing factor. One thing I will say for the Great Depression/New Deal generation: they didn't have anywhere near the isolation issues our generation seems to grapple with.

> How do you help prevent alcohol or drug addiction? What are the reasons that people become addicted to drugs or alcohol?

Inability to escape or alter their situation except by altered mental state. Get people something they can constructively do (and fairly pay then for their time) and it's amazing how positive coping skills materialize.

For those with non-economic contributing factors, a big part of it seems to be social enablement, removing them from the stressor, etc... Which a robust framework of social services may help more with as long as you don't start trying to turn reaching out into a life tainting thing (no publically available by default records for info brokers to suck up that would adversely effect future prospects).

Also, unironically, a better justice system, post-release process.

These aren't hard. Just not terribly popular, due to the fact you have to pay people to help other people improve their lot. Or literally just inspect to make sure people are effectively using resources available to get their stuff straight.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give me the numbers and the objective measurement of what we need to meet for this to happen. Why is this hard for you? >What would you have us do? Dispense with masks and vaccines and just let the chips fall where they may? That's madness. COVID is a threat. >You are being Fox-news-level combative about your hobbyhorse here. While you're at it stop with the strawman and ad-hominem attacks. What it looks like is you…

>Are you really sure I'm the combative one in this situation? Very much so. That much was clear from your first comment, when you equated the knee-jerk acceptance of insane and ineffective security theater post-9/11 with the entirely rational measures we've taken in the face of a novel pandemic for which there is no existent immunity. Your tirades here demanding someone tell you the threshold at which point we can di…

You're straw-manning again and still not giving me an objective threshold.

Do you enjoy repeating yourself and making no headway?

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