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20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

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Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#711

Post by dreyfan »

jedberg wrote: post #612

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

It's 100% this. Artificial inconveniences created to convince people to willingly give up all their information past, present, and future for government surveillance. That they additionally convinced us to pay $80 for that is just perfection.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#712

Post by ceejayoz »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #610
ceejayoz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. Terrorists have likely killed far fewer Americans with their actions. We are not good at evaluating the less flashy risks to life. Wearing a seat belt saves a lot more lives than checking shoes at the airport, but we'll fight the seat belt a lot more.

100yr ago eugenics proponents were saying the same thing while bemoaning societies unwillingness to fully embrace their solutions. 200yr ago people who wanted to build heavy industry were making the same complaints bemoaning insufficient investment. And so on and so on. ~7 billion people aren't stupid. They just don't share your prioritization of whatever the societal issues you perceive to be most important today ar…

"This minor temporary inconvenience I don't like is as bad as eugenics" is its own trope.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#713

Post by chadlavi »

dreyfan wrote: post #711
jedberg wrote: post #612

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that. Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat. Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

It's 100% this. Artificial inconveniences created to convince people to willingly give up all their information past, present, and future for government surveillance. That they additionally convinced us to pay $80 for that is just perfection.

> give up all their information past, present, and future for government surveillance

Buddy, who do you think issued me the passport, social security card, birth certificate, and driver's license I used to get TSA Precheck?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#714

Post by jmisavage »

js2 wrote: post #694
jedberg wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government already has my fingerprints, because I had to give them to get a passport (edit: I've been informed this was only because I also did Global Entry) and also when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone and also when I got my driver's license. Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints.

> Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints. False. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app... My spouse and I renewed our passports in the last 10 years, and got our kids passports for the first time. We did not provide fingerprints. I am a U.S. citizen. I went through an SF86 clearance in the early 2000s and don't recall even that requiring my fingerprints (but I co…

I distinctly remember getting fingerprinted for my clearance paperwork. And those that get TS/SCI have to get polygraph test every couple years.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#715

Post by extra88 »

deathanatos wrote: post #661
carabiner wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSA Pre requires fingerprinting and a background check. You definitely give up some privacy in signing up for it. I mean you can unlock some computer devices with fingerprints.

I had to give up my fingerprints to maintain a drivers license, but that doesn't get me TSA Pre.

I'm having trouble finding any state where a standard drivers license currently requires being fingerprinted. Texas did it for a little while but stopped in 2015. Some specialty licenses require it, like a commercial license to carry hazardous materials.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#716

Post by irrational »

lexapro wrote: post #401
irrational wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me about it. I got to lay on top of the families suitcases in the back of the station wagon on road trips. It’s so much easier to sleep like that.

Yes, until you die in an accident that you could have survived with a seat belt.

Which is exactly why my everyone in my car wears their seat belts. But that doesn't change the fact that it was easier to sleep when laying down in the back of the station wagon.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#717

Post by vinay427 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #521
timr wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to happen only at smaller airports that didn't have the capacity to handle extra lines. But lately, I've had it happen at bit airports (like ATL), so I'm not really sure. The answer to your (implicit?) question is that it doesn't work. The staff take the card from you at the start of the process, and once your bag is in the machine, they have no idea if it's yours. So far, every time this has happened, I"ve b…

So after you already start the x-ray process, they take you aside and make you do the shoes, belt, and the rest? If I sound confused, it's because I am :). I don't get a pre-check card, it just shows up as a notation on my boarding pass. I scan it just like normal, then shove my phone into my backpack and toss it on the belt. No removing my shoes, belt, etc. They also won't touch my bag, and I have to be the one to p…

> I don't get a pre-check card, it just shows up as a notation on my boarding pass.

(Not the person you replied to.)

These are different things. It has nothing to do with you or your eligibility, but the specific time and place.

If you're eligible for PreCheck and have it printed on your boarding pass, at some airports and security lines that don't have a PreCheck lane open, you're given a laminated card that the first agent tells you will accord some of the PreCheck benefits. As with the OP, these didn't always work in practice in my experience.

The PreCheck line can temporarily be closed in a larger airport that would normally have one, or this may be a more permanent process in a smaller airport that might not have the space.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#718

Post by Alupis »

GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

> We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths

The "preventing a single death is worth it" crowd has unfortunately been running the show since 9/11.

This crowd has largely driven the COVID response as well - which went well past "flatten the curve" and turned into "stop all deaths no matter the cost", ignoring all externalities and consequences along the way.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#719

Post by extra88 »

jackson1442 wrote: post #689
jedberg wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government already has my fingerprints, because I had to give them to get a passport (edit: I've been informed this was only because I also did Global Entry) and also when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone and also when I got my driver's license. Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints.

Didn’t have to fingerprint for a passport, but did for a Texas driver’s license with some hand wavy reason I don’t remember.

That was only true for a relatively short period of time.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-no-longer-collecting-all-10-...

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#720

Post by 908B64B197 »

umvi wrote: post #658
GhostVII wrote: post #537

We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths. We are just so terrible at evaluating risk, for some reason it is OK to waste everyone's time with over the top security to stop a tiny portion of terrorism deaths, while still being OK with high speed limits that kill thousand…

> We should have some kind of dashboard tracking how many people die from terrorism, car crashes, heart disease, COVID, etc., and how much time and money we spend trying to prevent these deaths It would be a highly controversial dashboard, I guarantee it, likely unpopular with both political parties. The problem is that assuaging fear is often more important (to irrational people) than saving lives. For example, guns…

What's interesting is how all these policies focus on banning legal guns.

Now, try asking in a debate the proportion of crimes committed with legal weapons vs illegal weapons and watch your opponent start dancing around the question! Good luck getting a straight answer.

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