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ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

theregister.com

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Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#91

Post by ducktective »

plater wrote: post #34

Be careful when companies market themselves as Swiss or that due to them being located in Switzerland means there is some extra layer of security or privacy. Sure, it's a more stable country than many other countries in the world, but not much different from most EU countries for example. And privacy wise there is no difference. Be also aware of the fact that many companies market themselves as Swiss, but all it mean…

What, you mean those landing pages with that majestic snowy mountain doesn't automatically mean robust security and unparalleled privacy? My life has been a lie...

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#92

Post by cf_ »

rossmohax wrote: post #69
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of "we'll never log your IPs" is something that no company can hold. - Local law enforcement can force the to do so. - Locals laws can change. - Guys with guns might barge in and demand it. Mostly, you can understand that they don't _intend_ to log IPs, and aren't in the business of collecting and redistributing data. But that doesn't mean you can count on absolute and unconditional secrecy.

Same for end to end encryption, no? Law enforcement can force them to serve backdoored JS client payload.

Well, yes and no. Currently, Swiss law doesn't support this and providing the IP is based on specific requirements for telecommunication providers as far as I know. But yes, the law could be changed. However, keep in mind that Switzerland is a direct democracy and people here frequently actually vote on such issues directly (if one can gather enough support from the public).

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#93

Post by ur-whale »

dsign wrote: post #22

The ProtonMail guys always said that unless they were 20 miles from the littoral, in the sea side, they had to abide by national laws. So it was bound to happen. What makes me sad is how flimsy their entire premise (not necessarily "promise") turned out to be: all it took was some minor rascal in France to hug the wrong tree (so to speak), and ProtonMail is in the open saying they can't even protect the IP address of…

> I think there is a market for datacenters in open seas.

That's what the Sealand [1] dudes thought.

Until a bunch of boats showed up loaded with men carrying rifles who simply took over the country.

And when that happens, who/where do you turn to to whine that someone took your thing?

That's what sovereignty means: you're on your effing own. For real this time.

One thing most people tend to forget about governments: they have the monopoly on physical violence.

That's the first, most important and probably only useful thing you pay taxes to your government for: physical security.

If you want to run a DC in open seas:

    - buy a bunch of gunboats
    - hire a small army to provide physical security
    - try and not piss off any of the real countries lest they be the one showing up with many more gunboats than you may muster and take over the "open sea DC".
    - your services won't be cheap: gunboats must be maintained, armies paid and fed.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#94

Post by Verdex »

unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #53
EveYoung wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, email is the wrong medium for highly confidential communication. Especially, if someone's personal freedom or safety depends on it. Even if E2E works correctly, you still have to worry about meta data. Maybe Matrix over TOR would be a better alternative?

When someone's personal freedom or safety is at risk from their communications, said person should re-evaluate their career choices.

Why? What if they're working for a drug manufacturer trying to find a cure for cancer when they discover that one of the other drugs their employer creates is killing people, but that's being covered up because money. Should those people stop trying to cure cancer or just keep quiet about unnecessary deaths?

What happens if your job is to be a watch dog for oil rigs to make sure they're not polluting local waters or covering up spills? Some rough looking men tell you that you should forget some of what you saw in your last inspection? Should these types of jobs not exist?

What happens if you're just out for a walk late at night because you have insomnia? You just happen to see the chief of police up to some less than ideal actions at 3 in the morning in the park. How would changing your job even help in this scenario?

Sometimes people need to communicate something that could be a problem for their personal safety. And the rest of us as a society dearly need them to do it. And personally, I would like them to be able to do it while also costing them as little as possible. Because otherwise people tend to be quiet about things that should be known by all.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#95

Post by upofadown »

EveYoung wrote: post #36
ddevault wrote: post #10

ProtonMail has been fraught with problems for a long time, and it's good that serious issues are being brought to light. Their marketing is very good and critics of them have struggled to communicate to users for a while. The most important thing a serious privacy-minded service provider can do is be forthright and honest with users about the limitations of their privacy guarantees, particularly with respect to what…

In my opinion, email is the wrong medium for highly confidential communication. Especially, if someone's personal freedom or safety depends on it. Even if E2E works correctly, you still have to worry about meta data. Maybe Matrix over TOR would be a better alternative?

Encrypted email over an onion router (might even be TOR) would be no worse than Matrix over TOR for someone that needed anonymity on top of privacy. Since email can be done entirely offline, chances are that it would be better for the privacy:

* https://articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=em:emailvsim

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#96

Post by destitude »

raverbashing wrote: post #71
dskloet wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some companies try harder to fight the decision than others and it makes a difference.

Protonmail fought 700 actions the past year as per the twitter thread. I think that's very above average. https://twitter.com/andyyen/status/1434665937203077120

And yet they said they didn't even know it was a climate activist so how could they really fight if it isn't simply technicalities they are fighting on? Again, they fail to provide transparency in what reasons those requests were rejected and sounds like more marketing spin.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#97

Post by maxo133 »

vmception wrote: post #67
rvz wrote: post #2

It has been admitted. So they DO log your IP address when you use their service. So their customers have been lied to and have their privacy at risk. They cannot be trusted. So how long have ProtonMail kept this massive lie from its users then?

pretty much every comment section about protonmail has been pointing this out for years their users were too fanatical over "Swiss laws" to pay attention, going as far to demand proof when observers were merely pointing out the fundamental flaw in the Protonmail concept and incongruent advertising well, now there is proof

Today, i read somewhere while watching protonmail case comments, that switzerland has quite extensive surivellance laws which include possiblity of logging whole country inbound and outbound traffic for period of 6 months.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#98

Post by cpach »

For secure communications it’s much better to use Signal than e-mail. (Preferably with disappearing messages.)

I understand that people desire the UX of an e-mail client such as Thunderbird, Mail.app, Gmail or whatever. Nothing wrong with wanting that. But there is currently no good way to send e-mail securely.

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#99

Post by ashtonkem »

I’m not that surprised that ProtonMail folded; as someone else said they’re not going to do jail for you. What’s concerning is the nature of this warrant and arrest. As far as I can tell all the articles haven’t mentioned any actual crimes; is France just straight up arresting climate activists now?

Re: ProtonMail deletes 'we don't log your IP' from website after activist arrested

#100

Post by tyingq »

ArnoVW wrote: post #27
anothernewdude wrote: post #13

For such a stupid thing too. I'm surprised Switzerland provided a warrant for a climate activist.

From the blog posting I read yesterday, the individual was not arrested for his political convictions. He was not only a climate activist, but also a squatter. Apparently there were several police officers hurt during a legally mandated eviction of the building that he squatted. Saying "omg they arrested a climate activist" is like saying "omg, they arrested filesystem developer Hans Reiser!"

As far as I can tell, this was about squatting in an unused commercial space that was once a restaurant. The spot had been damaged prior to the squatting and no renovations to fix it had started.

So, yes, a crime, but comparing it to Hans Reiser seems a bit over the top.

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