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Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

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Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#141

Post by netvarun »

overlordalex wrote: post #137
netvarun wrote: post #126

Does anyone have any tips/advice to solve the inverse problem which is waking up on a regular schedule? I mostly follow sleep best practices - no phone before sleep, sleeping at a regular time, meditation, blackout curtains, no caffeine after noon, etc and am able to fall asleep. But however I have a problem with waking up. I either need 9+ hours of sleep or I’m awake in just 5 hours - almost a bimodal distribution.…

As a night owl, I abandoned the consistent bedtime approach and went with a pure consistent waketime. The approach that worked for me was having the same wake time, irrespective of time of year, light levels, or tiredness. There are some days when I'm a zombie because I messed up and stayed up too late, but I treat that as a negative reinforcement learning. The second step was to immediately get out of bed. No matter…

Thanks for the detailed write up. Quite a few actionable ideas for me to experiment with. This is helpful!

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#142

Post by Tenoke »

emodendroket wrote: post #139
Tenoke wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like it was within 10% of described for 71% of supplements (which sounds pretty okay) but there were some big outliers for the rest. It also suggests the biggest variance was in mixed-supplement pills while pure melatonin pills were mostly within the normal range. Definitely good to know but I wouldn't worry too much if you are just getting basic pure melatonin from a well-known manufacturer.

30% not even being within 10% seems like a pretty huge amount of variance to me. I guess it is a matter of perspective.

Sure but if that's mostly the mix of supplements in one tablet versions. If you buy pure melatonin from a respected brand it's going to be a pretty high chance you are getting the right dose.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#143

Post by krageon »

scoopertrooper wrote: post #128
krageon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not like a sleeping pill where more will necessarily make you more drowsy > I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you. So the problem I have with this reasoning is that I have tried this and the higher doses make me way more sleepy. I take a lower "correct" dose anyway (most of the time), but it has nothing to do with what works better…

The trouble is that you know how much you're taking. How do you rule out a placebo effect? Human have a pretty strong bias towards thinking that more equals better. Sleeping is probably one of the most physiologically influenced physiological processes we undergo, so it's pretty easy to believe that placebos would have a powerful influence on it.

If it's placebo, then don't tell me to test it (because as you say, that doesn't work). That said, the effects are so strong and so consistent I don't really care if it is placebo. As long as it works :)

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#144

Post by void_mint »

Tenoke wrote: post #101
void_mint wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting that people with mental health conditions do not self medicate with supplements that can be particularly harmful to those with mental health conditions is entirely reasonable.

You are vastly exaggerating the risks of attempting to self medicate with something as safe as melatonin while underappreciating the potential benefits.

Nope I didn't really. Mental health is no joke.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#145

Post by void_mint »

krageon wrote: post #97
void_mint wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting that people with mental health conditions do not self medicate with supplements that can be particularly harmful to those with mental health conditions is entirely reasonable.

Self-medication for quality of life is broadly all you have if you don't want to be put on the hefty big guns immediately. The alternative to the big guns is being told that there's nothing wrong with you. As such, saying "don't self-medicate" is extremely unproductive and only serves to push such practices out of view.

> As such, saying "don't self-medicate" is extremely unproductive and only serves to push such practices out of view.

Sure, this is definitely a strawman you could make.

Here in reality I suggested that those struggling with MH conditions shouldn't self medicate.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#146

Post by relaxing »

polskibus wrote: post #138
xvedejas wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sublingual tablets are available which result in a much more reliably fast absorption. I recommend them for anyone who wants less variability from their melatonin use.

Any links on why are sublingual better wrt absorption?

Short answer is because the chemical goes directly through the membrane into the bloodstream.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#147

Post by nextaccountic »

polskibus wrote: post #138
xvedejas wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sublingual tablets are available which result in a much more reliably fast absorption. I recommend them for anyone who wants less variability from their melatonin use.

Any links on why are sublingual better wrt absorption?

It bypasses the stomach and intestines. It also bypasses liver metabolism (first-pass metabolism)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration#Prin...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_pass_effect

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#148

Post by lamontcg »

mettamage wrote: post #44
lamontcg wrote: post #4

> the correct dose A single correct dose is a myth. The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly. There's also a wide variety of sleep disorders which are touched on in the article. I've suffered with 2.5mg before for long enough to understand that it doesn't work for me, no matter how many studies you have with 95% CL that the dose is much lower. The 5mg tab…

The "correct" dose happens to be 0.3 to 0.4mg for me. How did I determine that? I started with 3mg, got knocked out way too fast. Then went to 1.5mg, got knocked out way too fast. Rinse and repeat with 0.8mg. On 0.4mg I felt it was just about enough, and then I noticed 0.3mg sometimes helped and sometimes didn't. YMMV

> I started with 3mg, got knocked out way too fast.

Yeah, you see that doesn't happen with me with 5 mg.

I take it at least an hour before my planned time to go to sleep and it takes at least that long to kick in for me.

People responding to me still don't understand that there's significant interpersonal variation.

I literally don't understand this concept of melatonin "knocking me out". It doesn't do that to me at all. If I really wanted to just plug myself into a computer game or something I could easily power through the 5mg of melatonin and stay up until >3am.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#150

Post by joelrunyon »

oiadscient wrote: post #117
joelrunyon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's referenced in the article - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/86/10/4727/2849013 In general - I'm surprised people take melatonin so casually without realizing that it's a hormone - not a mineral or amino acid like other sleep aids - https://impossible.co/blogs/health/melatonin-side-effects

It’s not a hormone. It’s an antioxidant.

This type of comment isn't helpful.

A hormone describes the type of compound something is. An antioxidant describes its behavior. They're not mutually exclusive.

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