Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#101

Post by Tenoke » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

void_mint wrote: post #70

lamontcg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"mental health conditions" is rather broad along with the intersection between insomnia and depression. you probably just suggested that nobody should take melatonin because you had anxiety.

Suggesting that people with mental health conditions do not self medicate with supplements that can be particularly harmful to those with mental health conditions is entirely reasonable.

You are vastly exaggerating the risks of attempting to self medicate with something as safe as melatonin while underappreciating the potential benefits.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#102

Post by Kiro » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

jspash wrote: post #76

xtracto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife suffered from sleeping issues for a very long time. She tried everything under the sun including nytol, sublingual melatonin , slow release melatonin, passiflora and other teas. Nothing really helped her until eventually someone suggested ZMA (a zinc magnesium complex used by bodybuilders ) . That was a saving pill for her and fixed her sleep.

My experience also. Melatonin did absolutely nothing. ZMA makes me drowsy within minutes. I can fight that off but will eventually succumb. The only side-effect I've noticed other than the incredibly vidid and sometimes nightmarish dreams is that the effect will linger long into the next day. Mind you, the sleep is incredibly deep and restorative. It's not like some other sleeping pills that just knock you out, but y…

I'm jealous. I've tried Melatonin, regular Magnesium and ZMA. No effect whatsoever.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#103

Post by Tenoke » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 9:36 AM UTC

playcache wrote: post #46

I wonder how many folks that are taking Melatonin are coffee drinkers? I spent years trying to crack my sleep issues. Blackout curtains, magnesium malate / citrate, no electronic devices for an hour before bed, CBD oil, even stronger CBD oil, different doses of Melatonin, 5-HTP, valerian extract, sleep apnea tests. It never really significantly occured to me that it would be coffee as I believed I had ruled this out.…

Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality. I've quit it for months at a time but it hasn't made me feel less tired when I do, the opposite in fact.

Of course, there's people like you for which it helps less than hurts but all large studies I can find suggest you are in the minority, not majority.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#104

Post by underwater » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 10:02 AM UTC

JaviFesser wrote: post #87

> 5. I try to use melatonin for sleep, but it just gives me weird dreams and makes me wake up very early Story of my life. I just noticed because of this article that I have more weird dreams since I'm taking melatonin. Yesterday I took one and woke up at 4am after having a super weird dream.

I had something similar happen after around two months taking 2mg each evening. I started waking regularly. I Quite for a month then started having a quarter tablet every few nights, and the experience has not repeated itself.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#105

Post by memsom » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

bserge wrote: post #93

Sunspark wrote: post #11

Melatonin is a hormone, and is contraindicated for those with existing or predisposition to mental health conditions. In fact, that used to be a warning on the label in NY state. It's not something to play with.

It is if you accept the risks. Everything should be something to "play with". Never worked for me in any dosage, anyway, hopefully it works for others. Doesn't really matter in Europe since it's prescription only like anything else half useful. Living like a bunch of idiot slaves over here.

It is prescription only in the UK. I believe you also end up with pretty low dosages too... I think 0.3 mg sounds familiar.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#106

Post by whywhywhywhy » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

smnplk wrote: post #65

lamontcg wrote: post #4

> the correct dose A single correct dose is a myth. The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly. There's also a wide variety of sleep disorders which are touched on in the article. I've suffered with 2.5mg before for long enough to understand that it doesn't work for me, no matter how many studies you have with 95% CL that the dose is much lower. The 5mg tab…

How did you cure your DSPD? I am asking for a friend..:P

Only thing that helped for me was finding a job that didn't care what time I showed up.

I still sleep weird times but at least I'm no longer laying there frustrated and extremely stressed at 5am that after laying there for 5 hours I'm not asleep and worried about oversleeping or just having to go to work without sleep to not risk being scolded about showing up late again.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#107

Post by scrollaway » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 10:20 AM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #4

> the correct dose A single correct dose is a myth. The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly. There's also a wide variety of sleep disorders which are touched on in the article. I've suffered with 2.5mg before for long enough to understand that it doesn't work for me, no matter how many studies you have with 95% CL that the dose is much lower. The 5mg tab…

I’m 30, with sleep disorder that fits exactly what you are describing. I’ll share my own anecdote.

I've taken melatonin in 0.3mg sublingual doses, it worked perfectly. It’s incredible the control it gives me over my sleep after having none for decades.

However it leaves me unmotivated the next day, like I don’t want to get out of bed and if I do, I don’t want to get out of the house or do anything. I thought it was coincidental but it’s systematic. Very annoying.

So I stopped taking it. I now only take it on days where I know I’ll be doing nothing the next one anyway. Curious if anyone has had a similar experience.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#108

Post by gitanovic » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 10:50 AM UTC

void_mint wrote: post #70

lamontcg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"mental health conditions" is rather broad along with the intersection between insomnia and depression. you probably just suggested that nobody should take melatonin because you had anxiety.

Suggesting that people with mental health conditions do not self medicate with supplements that can be particularly harmful to those with mental health conditions is entirely reasonable.

That's now what was written:

Melatonin should never be taken... is different from recommending not to self medicate.

The previous comment can also be read as "disregard medical advice if tells you to take melatonin"

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#109

Post by playcache » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 11:02 AM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #103

playcache wrote: post #46

I wonder how many folks that are taking Melatonin are coffee drinkers? I spent years trying to crack my sleep issues. Blackout curtains, magnesium malate / citrate, no electronic devices for an hour before bed, CBD oil, even stronger CBD oil, different doses of Melatonin, 5-HTP, valerian extract, sleep apnea tests. It never really significantly occured to me that it would be coffee as I believed I had ruled this out.…

Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality. I've quit it for months at a time but it hasn't made me feel less tired when I do, the opposite in fact. Of course, there's people like you for which it helps less than hurts but all large studies I can find suggest you are in the minority, not majority.

> Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality.

You're conflating caffeine with coffee, specifically coffees non-caffeine properties.

If you're referring to the Harvard study, that is coffee and its antioxidant properties, they even state [0] "and it doesn’t appear to matter if the coffee is caffeinated or decaf, brewed or instant."

The same antioxidants are widely available in many plant based foods and beyond, something lacking in an American diet, so coffee in that context is beneficial I guess.

However, the caffeine in itself does nothing to reduce mortality, its primary role in plants is an insecticide. In humans its classed as a neurotoxin.

caffeine has no health benefits, beyond cognitive, so sure it might stop you crashing your car if driving tired, but that's about the extent of it.

[0] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/coffee-lo...

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)

#110

Post by coldtea » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 11:30 AM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #4

> the correct dose A single correct dose is a myth. The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly. There's also a wide variety of sleep disorders which are touched on in the article. I've suffered with 2.5mg before for long enough to understand that it doesn't work for me, no matter how many studies you have with 95% CL that the dose is much lower. The 5mg tab…

>A single correct dose is a myth. The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly.

The author spends several paragraphs citing studies, different cases and populations, and says explicitly why they concluded to the specific mg dose:

"Based on a bunch of studies that either favor the lower dose or show no difference between doses, plus clear evidence that 0.3 mg produces an effect closest to natural melatonin spikes in healthy people, plus UpToDate usually having the best recommendations, I’m in favor of the 0.3 mg number. I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high."