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An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

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Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#111

Post by SiVal »

ipaddr wrote: post #103
SiVal wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can order whatever you want unless a payment is made and product accepted a legal transaction hasn't occured." It may or may not be a crime depending on intent, but a transaction is not the issue. It is breach of contract. Laws obviously vary around the world, but the US Uniform Commercial Code is probably typical. The restaurant has made an offer. The customer has accepted it. There is agreed-to "consideration"…

Big orders require pre-payment. If no stock is available the customer should expect a wait. Even a pizza shop will require a credit card for 20 pizzas. If someone is selling 1 million dollars worth of widgets and the buyer is unknown prepayment is required. If known and a valid purchase order is signed the customer usually has net30/60 to pay if they don't there might be a lawsuit or a black mark on their credit file…

"Big orders require pre-payment." That's neither criminal (ex: fraud) nor civil (contract) law. That's just one of countless things a party may or may not choose to do as personal/corporate policy. I might ask for a downpayment, or a full prepayment or a credit card or collateral or just trust you or whatever. It's irrelevant to the question of criminal culpability or civil liability. Unfortunately, you can be at risk even when you are in the right because of practical aspects of recovery such as legal costs, unpredictability of court outcomes, ability of the other party to pay even if they lose in court, etc. So there are extra-legal (not illegal, just private policy) methods of reducing the risk.

Whether you choose to avail yourself of such policies or not (including even getting the contract in writing) has no relevance to the legal question of whether a contract was breached.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#112

Post by ineptech »

xyzzyz wrote: post #85
ineptech wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is established through unceasing efforts of activists, who pushed for it, precisely in order to exploit the negative connotations of the word “theft” to describe something that is not what people typically associate with the notion of theft. Source? I think this term has been in general use for at least two generations.

You're very much wrong then. It was not commonly used until 2003, when it really took off, and today it's used around 500 times more often than 20 years ago. Suffice to say, wage theft is not a 500 times bigger problem now compared to then. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wage+theft&yea...

I was asking more about the "unceasing efforts of activists" part. That seems like it would've been controversial but I don't remember hearing anything about it. Who were they?

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#113

Post by ineptech »

cma wrote: post #54

Hundreds of millions in the US is from $0.30 up to $2.99 per capita. Maybe similar in scale to yearly losses from stuck vending machines.

"The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616." -- TFA

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#114

Post by ineptech »

CheezeIt wrote: post #51

If this is over the normal course of business and spread out over years, as it would be for workers not getting paid a few minutes preparing their workstation before their shift, or not having rest breaks, then it’s an implied (or explicit!) part of the employment contract and not actually any sort of scam. Assigning the word “theft” is dishonest.

"No one knows precisely how many instances of wage theft occurred in the U.S. during 2012, nor do we know what the victims suffered in total dollars earned but not paid. But we do know that the total amount of money recovered for the victims of wage theft who retained private lawyers or complained to federal or state agencies was at least $933 million—almost three times greater than all the money stolen in robberies that year." -- TFA

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#115

Post by xyzzyz »

ineptech wrote: post #112
xyzzyz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're very much wrong then. It was not commonly used until 2003, when it really took off, and today it's used around 500 times more often than 20 years ago. Suffice to say, wage theft is not a 500 times bigger problem now compared to then. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wage+theft&yea...

I was asking more about the "unceasing efforts of activists" part. That seems like it would've been controversial but I don't remember hearing anything about it. Who were they?

What kind of source are you looking for then? Do you want me to provide you with some sort of academic paper detailing activist movements to popularize this term? Maybe a magazine article? No, I'm not going to do that, as such thing most likely does not exist. Not all real fact about universe can be easily sourced, and I'm not going to spend hours or days stitching examples from old archives to make a convincing case.

What I rather recommend is thinking about what could make a term like this suddenly explode in popularity, despite the issue being as old as civilization, and not experiencing any dramatic changes in frequency or severity in the same time frame. The concerted (though not necessarily coordinated) effort of activists is the only realistic explanation.

Since the rise of "wage theft" out of complete obscurity has occurred around 20 years ago, and it might be hard for you to connect it to specific activism, here's something more recent, which might make it easier for you to observe it in real time: "birthing parent". These people used to be called "mothers", alas since around 2014, we've seen a similar explosion of this notion: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=birthing+paren... Pay attention next time you see this term used, and see who uses it, where, and why.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#116

Post by kennywinker »

Aunche wrote: post #102
kennywinker wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False equivalence. Wage theft is companies using their power as an employer to rob workers. Time theft is sneaking around the edges. It’s not “pay me for this time i didn’t work or i quit”. We care about this because of the power imbalance, and it’s not present in the time theft case.

GP's comment wasn't about the power imbalance. My point is that people getting away with fraud isn't limited to employers. Moreover, the biggest culprit of time theft are struggling businesses, and most employees can and do leave these places without a problem. The lack of a power imbalance in these cases doesn't make the wage theft any better.

Lack of power imbalance? “I might lose my job, because my company is struggling” isn’t much of a power equalizer.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#117

Post by Aunche »

kennywinker wrote: post #116
Aunche wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP's comment wasn't about the power imbalance. My point is that people getting away with fraud isn't limited to employers. Moreover, the biggest culprit of time theft are struggling businesses, and most employees can and do leave these places without a problem. The lack of a power imbalance in these cases doesn't make the wage theft any better.

Lack of power imbalance? “I might lose my job, because my company is struggling” isn’t much of a power equalizer.

The equalizer is the that people can and do decide to leave these companies that owe them wages, meaning the company has no leverage on them.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#118

Post by orwin »

mchusma wrote: post #99
balozi wrote: post #60

To play the devils advocate for a moment, I will suggest that the opposite of wage theft, whereby employees steal time/resources from their employers, is in orders of magnitude far greater. Almost no employee devotes 100% of their effort and time to their employer during paid time. Lots of socializing, day dreaming and standing around at every workplace. My point is to suggest that there are nuances to employer-emplo…

I agree with what you are saying. I personally have never seen something in the real world that looks much like "wage theft". I have seen hundreds of examples of basically the inverse, workers deliberately lying to employers to earn more. I think it's best if we just keep the word "theft" out if it. It is a misleading rhetorical tool.

> workers deliberately lying to employers to earn more

I don't see it. Is your contract about labor done, or about time given away?

In the first case, i don't see it, unless you lie about the labour done (which is pretty hard to do unless your employer don't understand one lick of what you're doing). If its time spent, well, i'm pretty sure that you then have to take into account commute time, time spent thinking about your work, mistake you've done, explaining what you're doing to people, bounding with coworker. In this case, i'm pretty sure most devs, arch or ops are owed a lot of money :)

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#119

Post by kennywinker »

Aunche wrote: post #117
kennywinker wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of power imbalance? “I might lose my job, because my company is struggling” isn’t much of a power equalizer.

The equalizer is the that people can and do decide to leave these companies that owe them wages, meaning the company has no leverage on them.

People can and do leave countries with totalitarian governments, but that doesn't mean there isn't a power imbalance between the government and the people of that country. Mobility can come at a very high cost, depending on your circumstances.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#120

Post by candiodari »

tadfisher wrote: post #110
ineptech wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not always true that you "just have to give it back"; repeat offenders do get taken to the woodshed sometimes. But, when employers and employees steal from each other, the fact that one is a criminal matter and the other a civil matter says a great deal about the law is and what purpose it was designed to serve.

I just Googled and saw that wage theft is actually a crime in Minnesota, punishable by fines and jail time. So it's not universally treated as a civil violation, at least.

And is that wage theft as in a local manager literally stealing wages, or wage theft as in general management chronically underpaying and having explicit policies to prevent workers from using their rights, deny them health coverage, ... ?
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