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An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

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Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#101

Post by [deleted] »

dataflow wrote: post #81
jseliger wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emergency medicine doctors appear to routinely suffer from this: most are expected to stay after their 12-hour shifts (some EDs have 8, 9, or 10 hour shifts, but 12 is common) to finish charting and take care of other tasks, but hospitals never pay for this time. I've asked EM docs about taking this to state labor boards and the like, but most seem not to think that wage theft is a problem, or fear retaliation too mu…

Flight attendants might be another example.

[deleted]

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#102

Post by Aunche »

kennywinker wrote: post #47
Aunche wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of wage theft is time theft, where the employee lies about the hours they worked. In most cases, the offender just gets fired. They aren't even required to give the money back because it's generally more trouble than it's worth to make them do so.

False equivalence. Wage theft is companies using their power as an employer to rob workers. Time theft is sneaking around the edges. It’s not “pay me for this time i didn’t work or i quit”. We care about this because of the power imbalance, and it’s not present in the time theft case.

GP's comment wasn't about the power imbalance. My point is that people getting away with fraud isn't limited to employers.

Moreover, the biggest culprit of time theft are struggling businesses, and most employees can and do leave these places without a problem. The lack of a power imbalance in these cases doesn't make the wage theft any better.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#103

Post by ipaddr »

SiVal wrote: post #89
ipaddr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is not a crime. You can order whatever you want unless a payment is made and product accepted a legal transaction hasn't occured. Missed items, uncooked food, poor quality are common reasons not to accept and send back. You can decide to decline the transaction at any point. What businesses do is make the person pay first. Rarely does a fastfood worker take my order.. stop.. makes my food and then asks me…

"You can order whatever you want unless a payment is made and product accepted a legal transaction hasn't occured." It may or may not be a crime depending on intent, but a transaction is not the issue. It is breach of contract. Laws obviously vary around the world, but the US Uniform Commercial Code is probably typical. The restaurant has made an offer. The customer has accepted it. There is agreed-to "consideration"…

Big orders require pre-payment. If no stock is available the customer should expect a wait. Even a pizza shop will require a credit card for 20 pizzas.

If someone is selling 1 million dollars worth of widgets and the buyer is unknown prepayment is required. If known and a valid purchase order is signed the customer usually has net30/60 to pay if they don't there might be a lawsuit or a black mark on their credit file with collectors calling.

Does it ever make sense to pay hundreds to win that 2 dollars back? Your employees waste more when meals don't turn out perfect. The cost of food to the restaurant includes the wasted food (usually from employee mistakes) and those are reflected in the prices.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#104

Post by toiletfuneral »

Aunche wrote: post #29
iso1210 wrote: post #2

"Between 2012 and 2013, McDonald’s reached agreement with the Kentucky Labor Cabinet to pay $29,000 in back wages to 203 affected workers" So basically you steal the money, and if you're caught (unlikely), you just have to give it back. Maybe I should try that next time I'm in a restaurant.

The flip side of wage theft is time theft, where the employee lies about the hours they worked. In most cases, the offender just gets fired. They aren't even required to give the money back because it's generally more trouble than it's worth to make them do so.

Were you always the narc growing up? Do you call the cops when your family breaks the speed limit?

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#105

Post by ineptech »

anonchan wrote: post #92
ineptech wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not always true that you "just have to give it back"; repeat offenders do get taken to the woodshed sometimes. But, when employers and employees steal from each other, the fact that one is a criminal matter and the other a civil matter says a great deal about the law is and what purpose it was designed to serve.

Stealing from a restaurant is a criminal matter because you're taking (by force or concealing your actions) what doesn't belong to you. A restaurant not paying wages is a civil matter because they failed to fulfill their contractual obligations to pay you and are in debt. Arguing that taking money by force and not paying money are equivalent is comparing apples and oranges. (It may be appropriate to criminalize faili…

> A restaurant not paying wages is a civil matter because they failed to fulfill their contractual obligations to pay you...

That's tautological. The actual reason it's a civil matter is because the people who write and interpret the law want it that way, yes?

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#106

Post by MikeTheGreat »

ipaddr wrote: post #37
dataflow wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe I should try that next time I'm in a restaurant. Perhaps ironically, people frequently place orders at restaurant and then decline to come to pick them up & pay. They restaurant still ends up providing the service they promise, and the customer declines to make the payment they promise. It's terrible, but my understanding is it's similarly quite commonplace and hardly ever prosecuted.

Because it is not a crime. You can order whatever you want unless a payment is made and product accepted a legal transaction hasn't occured. Missed items, uncooked food, poor quality are common reasons not to accept and send back. You can decide to decline the transaction at any point. What businesses do is make the person pay first. Rarely does a fastfood worker take my order.. stop.. makes my food and then asks me…

"A drive through is different and they get very low rates of drivers ordering only to drive away."

I hadn't realized this until I read your post, but most (not all, but most) drive-throughs that I've been to recently seem to be engineered to prevent people from ordering and then driving away.

"Engineered" like civil engineering, not social engineering. They feature a single lane with curbs on either side, typically near the edge of the property (so frequently near a fence or wall, etc).

I suppose the person could order, pull through, and then drive past the payment window and keep going, but other than that it's definitely not easy to leave that single, bounded lane once you're in it.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#107

Post by fisherjeff »

CheezeIt wrote: post #97
eschaton wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really; you’re saying that these violations of the law can become implicitly part of the terms of work and should be accepted as such, when they’re violations of the law and therefore cannot be considered part of the terms of work.

I didn’t say “no rest breaks” would be in a written contract. The first three or four jobs I had, there was no written contract. Illegal aliens somehow manage to have agreements with people paying them money. Lawmakers disagreeing with your terms of employment doesn’t have any bearing on the meaning of “theft”. The fact that you’re coming up with such convoluted legalistic reasoning shows what a lie it is.

Not sure why you’re so hung up on the “theft” part of this.

Look, you worked some amount of time for which federal law says you must be paid but you weren’t. Even if you agreed to those terms, implicitly or explicitly in a verbal or written contract, it’s absolutely still illegal.

So someone is in possession of wages to which you are (and, very explicitly, they are not) legally entitled. You can come up with whatever term you like for this situation but personally I think “theft” is remarkably straightforward and appropriate.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#108

Post by whateveracct »

balozi wrote: post #60

To play the devils advocate for a moment, I will suggest that the opposite of wage theft, whereby employees steal time/resources from their employers, is in orders of magnitude far greater. Almost no employee devotes 100% of their effort and time to their employer during paid time. Lots of socializing, day dreaming and standing around at every workplace. My point is to suggest that there are nuances to employer-emplo…

They are still spending hours at the place of work though. Nobody gets paid per sweatdrop - they get paid for their hours on the clock.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#109

Post by whateveracct »

nwiswell wrote: post #28
sdenton4 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it so the work and you don't pay me, you've stolen my time. It's absolutely theft.

And if you loaf around at work and still punch the timecard, should they haul you off to prison for that too?

They still spent their time at work. Not loafing at home. Don't like what you got out of that time? Pay up and fire them so you don't waste any more money.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#110

Post by tadfisher »

ineptech wrote: post #66
iso1210 wrote: post #2

"Between 2012 and 2013, McDonald’s reached agreement with the Kentucky Labor Cabinet to pay $29,000 in back wages to 203 affected workers" So basically you steal the money, and if you're caught (unlikely), you just have to give it back. Maybe I should try that next time I'm in a restaurant.

It's not always true that you "just have to give it back"; repeat offenders do get taken to the woodshed sometimes. But, when employers and employees steal from each other, the fact that one is a criminal matter and the other a civil matter says a great deal about the law is and what purpose it was designed to serve.

I just Googled and saw that wage theft is actually a crime in Minnesota, punishable by fines and jail time. So it's not universally treated as a civil violation, at least.
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