Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

epi.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 126 posts

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#21

Post by SerLava »

dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

They already own that money according to the employment contract, and it's stolen 2 weeks later

Besides, theft is used as a specific name of a set of crimes, but it also has a generalized definition that means unjust taking, which contains fraud and other forms of theft

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#22

Post by rdtwo »

nonameiguess wrote: post #13
dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

It's a term of art. In practice, I don't believe failure to pay a debt is ever prosecuted as theft, but it's not economically distinguishable from it even if a legal distinction is made. This is effectively the basis of accrual accounting whereby firms claim payments as an inflow on their income statements when a good or service is delivered, not when payment is received. Possibly worth noting if you reversed somethi…

It’s more like you order a meal and you never get the fries. Did they steal from you or defraud you or was it a mistake. Hence why it’s so hard to catch

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#23

Post by SerLava »

dataflow wrote: post #9
epistasis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how anything could ever be theft with this definition of theft...

Really? I can think of lots of things. If someone took your money from your wallet, that would be theft. If they refused to give it to you in the first place, that's not theft. It's pretty simple?

The employers stole the labor

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#24

Post by sdenton4 »

dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

If it so the work and you don't pay me, you've stolen my time. It's absolutely theft.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#25

Post by arcbyte »

yardie wrote: post #15
han2432 wrote: post #5

how is this tech related again?

I see you are new here; account created today. You should familiarize yourself with HN guidelines [0] about etiquette, new user. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Off-Topic: Most stories about ... crime.

Wage theft has been a crime for millenia. This is off topic and GP is right.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#26

Post by dataflow »

elliekelly wrote: post #19
dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

> You don't own your employer's money until it's paid to you. I think you’re conflating wages earned and wages paid. You most definitely do “own” the funds you’ve earned even if your employer has not yet paid them out to you.

> I think you’re conflating wages earned and wages paid. You most definitely do “own” the funds you’ve earned even if your employer has not yet paid them out to you.

"Own"... in what sense? Legally? If I went to withdraw that money from my employer's bank account, would they let me, or would they tell me that's not my money, even though it was supposed to be paid to me?

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#27

Post by burntoutfire »

sdenton4 wrote: post #24
dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

If it so the work and you don't pay me, you've stolen my time. It's absolutely theft.

And if you make me love you and don't love me back, you've stolen my heart... The OP was specifically asking about precise definitions, not metaphors like "stolen time".

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#28

Post by nwiswell »

sdenton4 wrote: post #24
dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

If it so the work and you don't pay me, you've stolen my time. It's absolutely theft.

And if you loaf around at work and still punch the timecard, should they haul you off to prison for that too?

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#29

Post by Aunche »

iso1210 wrote: post #2

"Between 2012 and 2013, McDonald’s reached agreement with the Kentucky Labor Cabinet to pay $29,000 in back wages to 203 affected workers" So basically you steal the money, and if you're caught (unlikely), you just have to give it back. Maybe I should try that next time I'm in a restaurant.

The flip side of wage theft is time theft, where the employee lies about the hours they worked. In most cases, the offender just gets fired. They aren't even required to give the money back because it's generally more trouble than it's worth to make them do so.

Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)

#30

Post by aqme28 »

dataflow wrote: post #6

> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…

What would you call "theft of services"? "Service fraud" instead?

Theft is a more consistent term for this than you're giving credit.

Post reply on HN