If this is over the normal course of business and spread out over years, as it would be for workers not getting paid a few minutes preparing their workstation before their shift, or not having rest breaks, then it’s an implied (or explicit!) part of the employment contract and not actually any sort of scam. Assigning the word “theft” is dishonest.
An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
51–60 of 126 posts
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neither is a perfect analogy, but note that in your example the customer is actually depriving the restaurant of their possession of some goods without payment, i.e. it's theft. The example here is about services being rendered.
Restaurants regularly resell goods in cases like this. I’ve had it happen when I was 10 minutes late. Worst case they can give it to workers at the end of the shift.
I wish they did that more! I haven't seen it happen much personally but I'm glad you've seen it a lot. I know not long ago I went to a restaurant where I saw meals had been waiting for pickup for several hours... right before they were closing. Probably easier for small businesses than chains/franchises I'm guessing.
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#53Why are people criticizing Freedom Labors™? If those workers are in any way unhappy, they should just find another job. It's a simple application of Freedom Markets™ principles to labor relations.
Assuming that minimum wage workers have the time, money or ability to find a better job is one hell of an assumption.
Giving minimum wage workers the benefit of labour regulations minimum standard doesn’t seem a big ask to me.
Maybe I’m missing your angle?
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#54Hundreds of millions in the US is from $0.30 up to $2.99 per capita.
Maybe similar in scale to yearly losses from stuck vending machines.
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neither is a perfect analogy, but note that in your example the customer is actually depriving the restaurant of their possession of some goods without payment, i.e. it's theft. The example here is about services being rendered.
Are you saying that labor being deprived of their, uh, labor, is not comparable to businesses being deprived of their goods?
I'm saying that legally speaking (not morally speaking), being deprived of intangible things (aka services, think "verbs") is somewhat different from being deprived of tangible things (aka goods, think "nouns"). Neither entirely different (obviously), nor entirely identical (obviously). They're not treated the same way in general and I don't think you'd want to treat them identically for legal purposes.
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#56"Between 2012 and 2013, McDonald’s reached agreement with the Kentucky Labor Cabinet to pay $29,000 in back wages to 203 affected workers" So basically you steal the money, and if you're caught (unlikely), you just have to give it back. Maybe I should try that next time I'm in a restaurant.
Emergency medicine doctors appear to routinely suffer from this: most are expected to stay after their 12-hour shifts (some EDs have 8, 9, or 10 hour shifts, but 12 is common) to finish charting and take care of other tasks, but hospitals never pay for this time. I've asked EM docs about taking this to state labor boards and the like, but most seem not to think that wage theft is a problem, or fear retaliation too much to do so.
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#57"Between 2012 and 2013, McDonald’s reached agreement with the Kentucky Labor Cabinet to pay $29,000 in back wages to 203 affected workers" So basically you steal the money, and if you're caught (unlikely), you just have to give it back. Maybe I should try that next time I'm in a restaurant.
Emergency medicine doctors appear to routinely suffer from this: most are expected to stay after their 12-hour shifts (some EDs have 8, 9, or 10 hour shifts, but 12 is common) to finish charting and take care of other tasks, but hospitals never pay for this time. I've asked EM docs about taking this to state labor boards and the like, but most seem not to think that wage theft is a problem, or fear retaliation too mu…
Docs are typically salaried, aren’t they?
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#58> This failure to pay what workers are legally entitled to can be called wage theft; in essence, it involves employers taking money that belongs to their employees and keeping it for themselves. Shouldn't it be called fraud rather than theft? I thought theft is depriving someone of something they own... but you don't own the money yet before the payment is made. My understanding was, if you intended to pay a debt, bu…
A paycheck is not a credit card payment. The value is on the books as soon as the work is completed.
If you don't intend to pay debt when you acquire it, that is fraud. But your equivalence ignores the counterparty: a worker is not loaning out their time to a company contingent on a loan agreement, they are making value as soon as the work is made, a fraction of which they own at that point. The terms are legally very different; one is a credit agreement and the other is a wage, because the counterparties are different.
In an ideal world, the wage agreement is far stricter than the credit agreement -- hence, it is called "theft" when it is violated. Unfortunately, as stated in the article, we do not live in an ideal world.
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think you’re conflating wages earned and wages paid. You most definitely do “own” the funds you’ve earned even if your employer has not yet paid them out to you. "Own"... in what sense? Legally? If I went to withdraw that money from my employer's bank account, would they let me, or would they tell me that's not my money, even though it was supposed to be paid to me?
Are you arguing in good faith? It is clear that the employer owes a debt to the employee as soon as the labor is performed per the labor agreement. The employee owns the debt. In theory they could sue to get that debt paid, in practice they probably can’t afford to.
> Are you arguing in good faith?
Yes? Kind of insulting that you ask, but thanks for at least asking instead of just accusing.
> It is clear that the employer owes a debt to the employee as soon as the labor is performed per the labor agreement. The employee owns the debt.
The employee owns the debt, not the funds. That's precisely the reason the employee needs to sue: he doesn't own the money yet. Otherwise he wouldn't need to sue; it would already be his and he could take possession of it.
Consider this: if the employee went into the employer's drawer and took out cash to get his pay without authorization, is that legal? I'm pretty sure that's theft, despite him legally owning the debt. Which I think is why you don't see e.g. underpaid cashiers going around removing cash from registers to repay stolen wages.
If it helps, you can also look at this from another angle: stolen goods can in general be returned directly to their owners. And stolen goods are in general illegal to possess knowingly. Now what would happen if that money was subsequently paid to another employee? Could the first one claw it back on the basis that it was theirs? No, I'm pretty sure he'd get to keep it because the money never actually "belonged" to the first employee. Or if the second employee was already aware of the wage having been "stolen" from the first one, is he now also a criminal for receiving stolen goods? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but you're welcome to fact-check me on all these; I'm happy to learn more.
Re: An Epidemic of Wage Theft Is Costing Workers Hundreds of Millions a Year (2014)
#60To play the devils advocate for a moment, I will suggest that the opposite of wage theft, whereby employees steal time/resources from their employers, is in orders of magnitude far greater. Almost no employee devotes 100% of their effort and time to their employer during paid time. Lots of socializing, day dreaming and standing around at every workplace. My point is to suggest that there are nuances to employer-employee arrangements that policy institutes can not account for.