How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#921

Post by gruez » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #909

finfinfin wrote: post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt many “woke” people would agree with you and call an unknown white family in Oregon—and not Zuckerberg—“the real bad guys” .

Have you read the New York Times or watched CNN or MSNBC in the last five years? Rural and working class white people ("deplorables") have replaced Wall Street as the enemy. It's of course in-character for the New York Times to punch down. That's the same thing they did when Wall Street was full of Rockefeller Republicans while rural and working class white people voted Democrat. The only thing that's changed is the…

>Have you read the New York Times or watched CNN or MSNBC in the last five years? Rural and working class white people ("deplorables")

I have, but I'm not a frequent reader so I must have missed the issues where "Rural and working class white people" were being called "deplorables". Can you link me to some of those articles?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#922

Post by the_why_of_y » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

the_why_of_y wrote: post #804

beerandt wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private property rights, or being manifestly in control of the fruits of ones labor. Or the exact opposite of slavery.

Lew Rockwell, chairman of the Mises Institute: A postscript on voluntary slavery. I am on record on numerous occasions in support of voluntary slavery; some other libertarians support me on this issue as well. See Andersson, 2007; Block, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007A, 2007B, 2009A, 2009B; Lester, 2000; Nozick, 1974, pp. 58, 283, 331; Philmore, 1982; Steiner, 1994, pp. 232. https://www.lewrockwell.co…

Too late to edit: this is published on Lew Rockwell's website, but the author of this article is Walter E. Block.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#923

Post by majani » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #669

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

Unfortunately this laissez fair approach is the exact opposite of modern wokeness. It’s their way or it’s attacks and cancellation. If you’re an oppressor class you have almost no way to be forgiven. The easiest way to show this is just ask some woke stars on their views of libertarianism, which is literally to let everyone be themselves.

Indeed. The way I see it, wokeness and religion seem to be two sides of the same coin

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#924

Post by majani » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

tchaffee wrote: post #872

zpeti wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this laissez fair approach is the exact opposite of modern wokeness. It’s their way or it’s attacks and cancellation. If you’re an oppressor class you have almost no way to be forgiven. The easiest way to show this is just ask some woke stars on their views of libertarianism, which is literally to let everyone be themselves.

I have had many debates with libertarians over the decades and have yet to meet one who believes in either practice or theory to "literally to let everyone be themselves". Libertarianism fails really hard in situations where you have a lot more overall prosperity if you limit everybody. Libertarianism misses these opportunities because of its blindness to anything but individual freedoms. In economic terms it mostly…

You would do well to talk to minarchists, who are libertarians who believe in small governments that only perform a role of setting regulations and enforcing them, rather than governments being active market participants

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#925

Post by TechBro8615 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

finfinfin wrote: post #884

zpeti wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two paragraphs from Glen greenwald are my favorite and very relevant to your post: “But they [GCHQ] want you to know that they absolutely adore gay people. In fact, they love the cause of LGBT equality so very much that, beginning on May 17, 2015 — International Day against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia — they started draping their creepy, UFO-style headquarters in the colors of the rainbow flag. The pri…

It’s a strongly expressed opinion that isn’t necessarily supported by evidence. Do you know of any statistical or anecdotal evidence? I personally don’t know anyone who changed their opinion of GCHQ for better because of their support of LGBT. I don’t agree that it’s so easy to draw such conclusions and exclaim “sure they spy on us but look at their flamboyant support of social justice”.

What? The statement doesn’t make any claims about GCHQ except that they take morally reprehensible actions like spying on people, scanning emails, etc. Is the idea that GCHQ (a spy agency) spies on people a claim that requires evidence?

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#926

Post by _Nat_ » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #71

newacct583 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being required to, say, share drinking fountains or pools with people of another race should not be compared to this. Indeed. And I didn't. I said "negro". Generations of people genuinely thought that was a neutral term. They were pissed as all fuck when all of a sudden it became a symbol of centuries of oppression. And they used language exactly like yours to express their exasperation. But the words changed anywa…

I remember Fredrik Douglass article in which he complained about negro word being used. It offended him. And that was prior civil war, when he advocated against slavery. Which, quite a few people argued is a good thing.

Fredrick Douglass appears to have liked the term "Negro" [1]:

> The form of the negro —[I use the term negro, precisely in the sense that you use the term Anglo Saxon; and I believe, too, that the former will one day be as illustrious as the latter] [...]

Would you happen to recall where you may've seen Douglass complaining about it?

---

1: Frederick Douglass, "The claims of the Negro, ethnologically considered", 1854-07-12. PDF-page 16: https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/rbc/rbaapc/079...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#927

Post by UWillOwnNothing » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #921

rayiner wrote: post #909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the New York Times or watched CNN or MSNBC in the last five years? Rural and working class white people ("deplorables") have replaced Wall Street as the enemy. It's of course in-character for the New York Times to punch down. That's the same thing they did when Wall Street was full of Rockefeller Republicans while rural and working class white people voted Democrat. The only thing that's changed is the…

>Have you read the New York Times or watched CNN or MSNBC in the last five years? Rural and working class white people ("deplorables") I have, but I'm not a frequent reader so I must have missed the issues where "Rural and working class white people" were being called "deplorables". Can you link me to some of those articles?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/09/10/hillary-c...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/29/politics/wives-of-the-dep...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/opinion/clin...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#928

Post by TechBro8615 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #669

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

Unfortunately this laissez fair approach is the exact opposite of modern wokeness. It’s their way or it’s attacks and cancellation. If you’re an oppressor class you have almost no way to be forgiven. The easiest way to show this is just ask some woke stars on their views of libertarianism, which is literally to let everyone be themselves.

Not really though. You can just ignore it all and not engage with it. It’s a good strategy btw, highly recommended.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#929

Post by notahacker » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 10:17 PM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #889

finfinfin wrote: post #884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a strongly expressed opinion that isn’t necessarily supported by evidence. Do you know of any statistical or anecdotal evidence? I personally don’t know anyone who changed their opinion of GCHQ for better because of their support of LGBT. I don’t agree that it’s so easy to draw such conclusions and exclaim “sure they spy on us but look at their flamboyant support of social justice”.

To give you the perfect example, I think all the types of people who were protesting (100% correctly) at the Occupy Wall Street movements have been completely neutered and neutralised with this woke movement in corporations. These bankers and banks basically destroyed the american dream like no other person/corporation in history, they did more damage to minorities than any "white oppressor", yet they've basically be…

Name one person who has decided banks are no longer to blame for 2008 because rainbow flags.

The Occupy movement failed because sitting in tents complaining about systems almost invariably fails, and people aren't as angry about a deep recession caused by subprime mortgage lending because it's 13 years later and the deep recession we experienced most recently wasn't caused by anything at all to do with the banking system.

Some overlapping but largely different groups, with different priorities and strategies had more success in making a difference; perhaps not a difference you care for but a difference. Rather than wonder if certain groups of "woke" activists were better at organising and picking their goals, and can be learned from, you accuse them of "neutralising" unrelated causes you feel closer to, as if it's impossible for any activist to be opposed to homophobia and Goldman Sachs, and spend your message board days railing against "woke" activism instead of corrupt bankers.

It's the perfect divide and be conquered tactic, and you can guarantee nobody appreciates your argument that the real reason billionaires got away with crookedness is some trans activists had a bit of success more than crooked billionaires.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#930

Post by jrm4 » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #901

jrm4 wrote: post #780

I hate the phrase, because people on the other side use it to conflate longstanding serious thought and action on the matters with young naive liberal chatter. That being said, the easiest way to cut through most of it is to look toward people who have dealt with this sort of thing most of their lives, and "older black professionals" nearly always fit the bill. There's an unfortunate 'survival of the fittest' bent to…

Older black professionals will empirically speaking also be against transgenderism and homosexual marriage. To those who will inevitably down vote me, I am describing demographically informed stances on arguments not saying what the correct answer is.

Almost. 5-10 years ago, they would be. In 5-10 years, they will almost certainly universally won't, and that's kind of part of my point; On one hand, yes, our "internal" debates on this type of stuff end up being very public, and as such, people who lean in strong directions become visible.

But also, we tend to collectively adapt much quicker and much better. I'm pretty comfortable claiming that this will be the case based on my own experiences with friends and family. In college, I'd say about half of my black friends were pretty "homophobic" and exactly zero of those same people are still.