How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#801

Post by njharman » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #597

concordDance wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern wokism is actually defined by illiberalism. It's very much about what you are not allowed to do. Not dressing like X, not using Y things, not saying Z, not getting a place at uni or a job due to having the wrong skin color, etc.

Some of those Xes, Ys, and Zs are actually good points and it's good the people who were talking about it all along have a voice now. Just because some people, usually not those actually affected, go overboard or talk over the people they're trying to help doesn't invalidate the concerns. It's actually good that, now, I understand the big ol generic "Indian" with a war bonnet painted in the school gym when I was a ki…

I, nor you, have an obligation to honor or respect anyone's beliefs. We have the limited rights to dismiss, criticize, adopt, etc any belief/creed/etc. The limits are prohibiting or restricting others, including original inventors of belief , from doing same except in support of 2nd limitation. Which is, doing harm.

Many want that to be absolute no harm. I strongly disagree that "hurt feelings" and "uncomfortableness" are worthy levels of harm.

Society continues to debate this.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#802

Post by christophilus » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

luffapi wrote: post #596

rayiner wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids need to be socialized in the ideas and values that make their civilization successful. Critical thinking is one piece of that, but we focus too much on it in elite environs. We also need to teach kids to tend to the edifice of civilization we’ve built, not just how to tear pieces of it down.

What does it mean for a civilization to be “successful”? The vast majority of our progress has been made off of exploration, slavery and war. The latter fueling the entire tech industry starting with the code cracking computers of WWII and the nuclear holocaust survivable internet. Who is working the mines for the materials in our iPhones, and under what conditions? It’s worthwhile to teach children the true history…

It’s almost as if history and humanity is messy, and doesn’t fit into a tidy little box. There has never been a system that was built from the ground up on flawless, utopian principles. The success of our system can be argued in a myriad ways; likewise the failures. I want my kids to understand the greatness of our civilization while doing their part to correct it’s shortcomings. It’s one of my goals, and I hope they take up the mantle.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#803

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

howinteresting wrote: post #544

eweise wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last job we were all highly encouraged by the CEO to add our preferred pronouns to our profiles. Just another reason I left.

That seems like a good thing for the trans and nonbinary employees at your former workplace.

Its probably also good for people with gender identity within the traditional binary who have names that don’t have obvious and correct gender loading in the culture of the individuals who might be addressing them. (Even if there are photos in profiles, people can also have androgynous or non-gender-stereotypical appearance without trans or nonbinary identity.)

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#804

Post by the_why_of_y » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

beerandt wrote: post #718

cloudfifty wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> libertarianism, which is literally to let everyone be themselves No, it isn't. Its core is to enforce private property rights? That will very likely not translate into "letting everyone be themselves".

Private property rights, or being manifestly in control of the fruits of ones labor. Or the exact opposite of slavery.

Lew Rockwell, chairman of the Mises Institute:

A postscript on voluntary slavery. I am on record on numerous occasions in support of voluntary slavery; some other libertarians support me on this issue as well. See Andersson, 2007; Block, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007A, 2007B, 2009A, 2009B; Lester, 2000; Nozick, 1974, pp. 58, 283, 331; Philmore, 1982; Steiner, 1994, pp. 232.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/01/walter-e-block/scurrilou...

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#805

Post by pphysch » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #362

p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

Wokeness is essentially a New England Puritan movement with some minor modifications. Even the sources (Ivy Leagues) are the same. If you view it through this lens, the lack of tolerance and crusader zeal becomes very apparent. It is perhaps the exact opposite of libertarianism. Edit: some Puritan libertarians do not like this comment :)

"Wokeness" (liberal universalism) is actually closely related to libertarianism. It's really just the same Western, individualistic, idealistic, Christian worldview and values applied at different societal scales, generating different conclusions.

Small scale rural (or elite)? These values manifest as libertarianism.

Big scale urban? These values manifest as liberal universalism, or "wokeness".

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#806

Post by mkr-hn » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

njharman wrote: post #801

mkr-hn wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those Xes, Ys, and Zs are actually good points and it's good the people who were talking about it all along have a voice now. Just because some people, usually not those actually affected, go overboard or talk over the people they're trying to help doesn't invalidate the concerns. It's actually good that, now, I understand the big ol generic "Indian" with a war bonnet painted in the school gym when I was a ki…

I, nor you, have an obligation to honor or respect anyone's beliefs. We have the limited rights to dismiss, criticize, adopt, etc any belief/creed/etc. The limits are prohibiting or restricting others, including original inventors of belief , from doing same except in support of 2nd limitation. Which is, doing harm. Many want that to be absolute no harm. I strongly disagree that "hurt feelings" and "uncomfortableness…

If people had respected the right of people to practice and believe as they wish, there would be no problem, but now their cultures are in tatters after centuries of violence and forced reeducation, and they're trying to protect what's left. The current situation is the result of people not believing what you said, in the past or present.

You speak in abstract terms of rights and privileges. This is the actual, real situation. There are real human consequences to treating endangered indigenous cultures as something to repackage and transform for the benefit of people outside those cultures.

Keep that in mind as you debate abstract ideas with "society," whatever that is.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#807

Post by fallingknife » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #762

fallingknife wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when did "politeness" mean you have to do what other people tell you? If English people demanded that we spell color like "colour" because seeing it without the u made them uncomfortable, the correct response would be to tell them to fuck off. I don't see why it's any different with people demanding their own pronouns

Because when a specific person asks you to refer to them in a particular way, it’s polite to acquiesce. When you call someone something they don’t like, they will respond by not liking you. If someone asks you to refer to them as “they”, and you tell them to “fuck off”, you’re not going to have a good relationship with that person.

Yes, if someone asked me to refer to them as "your royal highness," I'm sure they will not like me if I don't. But generally I don't care if people who go around making demands for special treatment like me or not. This is what the pronoun people do. They end up not well liked because of their attention seeking demands, and then when they notice that no one likes them, they blame it on "bigotry."

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#808

Post by Retric » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

chakkepolja wrote: post #793

igravious wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct with the caveat that there's no "they" there. Or like people say, there's identity politics and then there's actual politics. Or yet another way of putting it is that class differences trump fake differences in the real world but academia and the media focus on fake differences. Hierarchies and social strata exist and persist over centuries. The problem of economic inequality is a tough nut to crack.…

The main problem is wokeness gives some people political leverage they wouldn't otherwise have, and it's hard to fire them even if they are shitty at work. That's a real problem.

It’s common to see people spout some version of “How dare any group try to maximize it’s leverage!” With an implicit that I am not part of. People leverage a wide range of subtle interactions to their advantage. From shared national, ethnic, religious, or even educational background to good looks and height. It’s easy to point to any of them as being unacceptable. However, while they can be minimized, I don’t think this stuff is going away.

What’s interesting is the knock on effects as these interactions get internalized into culture. Working out to maximize attractiveness, especially while networking, just becomes part of climbing the corporate ladder.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#809

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

[deleted]

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#810

Post by njharman » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #549

Our political and cultural institutions are dominated by people who attended those elite schools. This is the next batch of folks who will be doing your IPO paperwork: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... Now it’s making the jump to K-12. My second grader is apparently learning how to develop an “identity” around her “skin tone” (according to an email from her teacher). This has had the pre…

This so much.

If you tie your identity, your idviduality, your importance to your melanin amount or ethnicity you are racist. You are dividing up humans into "us and them". You are using it to set yourself apart, to make yourself different (which inevitably leads to divisiveness and bigotry because you've divided up humanity) and to stake out a claim of ownership on some part of human culture.

It's not your culture it is our culture. We are all humans. All culture is human culture.

Bigotry will persist for as long as people invest importance and value into ancestral and cultural differences between groups. Whether as a positive (celebrate X culture) or negative (blame Jews).

Obviously, until we view ourselves as united, as one. We will remain divided.