The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#161

Post by ledauphin » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #154

bluGill wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vice President has legal meaning as a title. Only a vice president or above can make some loans. Since banks make those loans all the time they need a lot of vice presidents to do it. In a small town bank with at most 10 people it makes sense, but for a large banks with branches all over the country you end up with a ton of vice presidents just for that need, but they don't really get any other authority.

Interesting. I always wondered why Senior level engineers at banks got the VP title. It seemed odd for someone formerly an IC to suddenly step into a VP level role, but this makes sense now.

but does it? are these software engineers actually making loans?

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#162

Post by pcmoney » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #47

pcmoney wrote: post #16

“For example, a senior title at Big Tech typically expects more from an engineer than a small developer agency, a non-tech-first company, or a recently founded start-up does” This is simply not true. Seniors at FAANG type companies simply dont do that much. Typically have a narrow specialty and a good grasp on how it fits into the larger Org’s strategy etc. Senior engineers at a small shop do EVERYTHING. Front end, b…

> This is simply not true. Seniors at FAANG type companies simply dont do that much. I don’t know where this myth came from, but it’s not true. Aside from the isolated stories about mismanaged FAANG departments that don’t have many responsibilities, FAANG jobs tend to have high standards and high expectations. FAANG companies don’t pay the highest salaries without expecting high output. The engineers may not be sprea…

Having worked at both I can say this with a high degree of certainty from my experience.

Even if you have a dedicated Sr at a BigTechCo it is just a much bigger boat to move. Also I have seen people promo at FAANG for projects that would be considered trivial/part of the job at a smaller shop. Command line utilities, improved CI pipeline etc.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#163

Post by rpmisms » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #154

bluGill wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vice President has legal meaning as a title. Only a vice president or above can make some loans. Since banks make those loans all the time they need a lot of vice presidents to do it. In a small town bank with at most 10 people it makes sense, but for a large banks with branches all over the country you end up with a ton of vice presidents just for that need, but they don't really get any other authority.

Interesting. I always wondered why Senior level engineers at banks got the VP title. It seemed odd for someone formerly an IC to suddenly step into a VP level role, but this makes sense now.

My Father-in-law is a VP at a banking firm, he's just a senior engineer, but he does handle plenty of financials. Makes total sense why he's a VP.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#164

Post by pcmoney » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:06 AM UTC

summerlight wrote: post #143

pcmoney wrote: post #16

“For example, a senior title at Big Tech typically expects more from an engineer than a small developer agency, a non-tech-first company, or a recently founded start-up does” This is simply not true. Seniors at FAANG type companies simply dont do that much. Typically have a narrow specialty and a good grasp on how it fits into the larger Org’s strategy etc. Senior engineers at a small shop do EVERYTHING. Front end, b…

> This is simply not true. Seniors at FAANG type companies simply dont do that much. Typically have a narrow specialty and a good grasp on how it fits into the larger Org’s strategy etc. I don't think this is true. Big techs have surprisingly many moving parts even for minor engineering projects and that complexity is the main motivation of hiring smart people from the globe. Most SWEs in big techs are generalists, n…

I would politely say that that just means it is harder to get things done so you accomplish less and by definition “get less things done” at a BigTechCo

Navigating a bureaucracy is a skill. And doing so can help get things done but in and of itself it is not actually getting anything done. Getting things done at a BigTechCo definitely takes more effort.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#165

Post by pcmoney » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #47

pcmoney wrote: post #16

“For example, a senior title at Big Tech typically expects more from an engineer than a small developer agency, a non-tech-first company, or a recently founded start-up does” This is simply not true. Seniors at FAANG type companies simply dont do that much. Typically have a narrow specialty and a good grasp on how it fits into the larger Org’s strategy etc. Senior engineers at a small shop do EVERYTHING. Front end, b…

> This is simply not true. Seniors at FAANG type companies simply dont do that much. I don’t know where this myth came from, but it’s not true. Aside from the isolated stories about mismanaged FAANG departments that don’t have many responsibilities, FAANG jobs tend to have high standards and high expectations. FAANG companies don’t pay the highest salaries without expecting high output. The engineers may not be sprea…

Also FAANG doesn’t pay the highest, top 10% maybe. IIRC google explicitly targets 80th percentile. Unicorns, Jane, HRT, all pay more typically.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#166

Post by lmm » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

ledauphin wrote: post #161

pm90 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I always wondered why Senior level engineers at banks got the VP title. It seemed odd for someone formerly an IC to suddenly step into a VP level role, but this makes sense now.

but does it? are these software engineers actually making loans?

No, but there are people at that level in the company who need to sign those contracts (I don't think it's loans specifically), and it's easiest to use a consistent title for everyone at that level.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#167

Post by bluGill » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #155

InitialLastName wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time) My understanding was that this still happens as a way to get around corporate card policies (either from the company or the credit company) that prevent anyone with a lower-than-leadership title from having signature power for purchasing. Want to give someone a corporate card so they can buy their own necessities? Give…

> get around corporate card policies This isn't true for tech companies (except maybe the antiquated ones). At my current firm, everyone got a corp card on request.

At my company everyone beyond intern is expected to have one, just in case we get sent on a trip.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#168

Post by faizshah » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #116

aix1 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There do exist those rare creatures who manage to get promoted to, and beyond, L6 as ICs. I've been trying figure out how they do it, but can't say I've been making much progress. (I'm Staff myself, but would not have got here without management responsibilities.)

I'm an L6 IC. Basically I had a track record of delivering projects that other engineers said couldn't be done yet were a high priority to upper management. That's actually on the (Google at least) ladder: "At this level...most Google-caliber generalist SWEs could not own and solve the problem this person is owning and solving." Note that even though I'm a coding-heavy L6 (meaning I spend ~50% of my time coding vs. t…

Can you give an example of a project like that? Or at least a hypothetical example if they are confidential.

I can’t think of a project like that that people said couldn't be done, its usually just people saying “we cant do it at this time unless we get more time or reprioritize something else.”

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#169

Post by mrbonner » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

Is Netflix the only big tech that doesn’t have promotion circuses to a higher title? I know they only have Senior SWE and Director of SWE. I honestly don’t think they have Staff or PE. Though, I bet there should be hugely disproportionate pay rate between 2 SWE sitting next to each other with the same title.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#170

Post by 100-xyz » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:45 AM UTC

I was CTO of a small company and managed 20+ devs. Got down leveled to Engineering Manager even though the job I applied for was Senior Engineering Manager. They switched the title at the offer stage. I reluctantly accepted but now regret it. One, I think of them as crooks for this and I have disengaged from the work. Second, titles especially in management have a HUGE effect on future jobs. Before this job, I would at least be considered for Director of Engineering positions. Now, zero response.

Also, as others have mentioned, the current work is easy as I have done much more complex tasks. But at the end of the day, I won't be reaping most of the benefits.

Overall, not a pleasant situation to be in.