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The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#21

Post by azdle »

nkingsy wrote: post #5

I got down leveled when I moved to big tech. Spent two years completely remaking the product I was tasked to work on, while the two other engineers on my team, both a level above me, cheered me on and didn’t do much. I turned our product from a total waste about to be cancelled into a promising tech with some momentum, but I spent all my time coding instead of writing about coding, and I likely won’t get promoted aga…

Are you me?

I spent the last 3 years completely redeveloping the foundation of our platform which will save the company millions of dollars a year. I didn't do it alone or anything. But I started the project, was the only one to work on it full time throughout the whole project, defined the underlying architecture, and implemented most of the lowest layers. I poured all my energy into the project.

We launched beginning of this month, I was so prod of what it represented technically. A week later I was told my performance was "acceptable", I got less than my target bonus, and got a 3% raise.

I tried to quit, but relented when I was convinced not to and am now putting my unlimited vacation to work. I'm 3 days into a month I'm taking off.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#22

Post by vbtemp »

nine_zeros wrote: post #4
vbtemp wrote: post #2

I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty great. What that permitted me to learn about myself is that - at the end of the day - I just like solving interesting and challenging problems, working with colleagues as equals, and creating products and solutions that I'm proud of. I have utterly no interest an…

A link to the reddit post would benefit an audience like me

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/nnw7yd/sob...

It's a little cheeky and at times a little hyperbolic, but I stand by it.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#23

Post by 66antigravity »

vbtemp wrote: post #2

I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty great. What that permitted me to learn about myself is that - at the end of the day - I just like solving interesting and challenging problems, working with colleagues as equals, and creating products and solutions that I'm proud of. I have utterly no interest an…

Mostly agree, but how about a person (lets say like me) who would like to offer skills in exchange for a great salary and thats it? No need for challenging problems, just the autonomy and time - thats what I would care about the most (and € ofc). Personal motto: work for living, not live to work. Therefore: screw those titles.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#24

Post by nine_zeros »

nkingsy wrote: post #5

I got down leveled when I moved to big tech. Spent two years completely remaking the product I was tasked to work on, while the two other engineers on my team, both a level above me, cheered me on and didn’t do much. I turned our product from a total waste about to be cancelled into a promising tech with some momentum, but I spent all my time coding instead of writing about coding, and I likely won’t get promoted aga…

Leave. Burnout happens when outcome != expectations.

Did you skill up? Switch jobs asap. Get yourself a 20% raise.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#25

Post by InitialLastName »

rizzaxc wrote: post #9
vbtemp wrote: post #2

I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty great. What that permitted me to learn about myself is that - at the end of the day - I just like solving interesting and challenging problems, working with colleagues as equals, and creating products and solutions that I'm proud of. I have utterly no interest an…

I mean at the end of the day the title is only to feed your own ego. At family gathering nobody's gonna ask you why you were Principal and now you're Staff. I find no difference between being called a "Director" or a "Manager", because the title alone tells me absolutely nothing Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time)

> Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time)

My understanding was that this still happens as a way to get around corporate card policies (either from the company or the credit company) that prevent anyone with a lower-than-leadership title from having signature power for purchasing. Want to give someone a corporate card so they can buy their own necessities? Give them a VP title.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#26

Post by bitwize »

I'm a shitty business person, but a pretty good developer. I'd not do well in a position that had a business emphasis, like a management position. (And, unlike other incompetents, am not narcissistic enough to groom my image at others' expense, so my optics would be terrible.) So I'm not inclined to climb the corporate ladder and my ego suffers less of a blow from taking a downlevel in title. Just pay me and pay me well.

That said, seniority has an advantage: interviewers are less likely to ask you leetcode questions as a gating function to a new job.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#27

Post by romanhn »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #15

If you’ve been in the tech industry long enough, you probably know that titles don’t mean much when comparing across different companies. But titles are a constant discussion topic when I’ve mentored younger people. It’s a common tactic for smaller companies to try to lure juniors in by offering them more prestigious job titles. If you’re fresh out of college and half of your career advice comes from your parents’ ou…

When so many companies focus on hiring senior engineers, we shouldn't be surprised that junior engineers are optimizing for the title. I did the same, negotiating a senior title with like three years of experience. It's silly, thinking back, but this was before the hiring boom (closer to the dotcom crash in fact), and felt very rational at the time.

I'm 100% onboard with not worrying about titles (and posted about my experience elsewhere in this thread), but certain market realities make for a different calculus for juniors vs seniors IMO.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#28

Post by mabbo »

> People who stay at the same company for a long time can get left behind compared to their peers, especially if the company does not move internal compensation bands to keep up with new offers

Right now, my office is being absolutely raided by recruiters from other companies because of this. With the switch to more remote jobs, the pay differences between geographies have gotten more level. What used to be great pay for Toronto is now good, but not great.

A lot of people who wanted promotions but weren't getting them are getting them- somewhere else, for more money.

Re: The Seniority Roller Coaster and Down-Leveling in Tech

#30

Post by RHSeeger »

rizzaxc wrote: post #9
vbtemp wrote: post #2

I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty great. What that permitted me to learn about myself is that - at the end of the day - I just like solving interesting and challenging problems, working with colleagues as equals, and creating products and solutions that I'm proud of. I have utterly no interest an…

I mean at the end of the day the title is only to feed your own ego. At family gathering nobody's gonna ask you why you were Principal and now you're Staff. I find no difference between being called a "Director" or a "Manager", because the title alone tells me absolutely nothing Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time)

It's more complex than that, though. If you're meeting with people outside your company, your title can influence how they see you. If you're meeting with a bunch of "Director" level people and you're a "Senior", they may treat you as a lesser member of the group. This can be impactful to your ability to accomplish your goals within that group at times.
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