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System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

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Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#331

Post by forgotmypw17 »

protomyth wrote: post #2

I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing on these larger portables.

Every laptop keyboard sucks in its own way.

Only the external standard layout will really do for look-free pressing of all the useful keys.

So I stopped expecting anything beyond a couple minutes out of laptop keyboards and always carry a standard-enough 104-key.

I first began this practice when I had a laptop with a few missing keys, but soon I realized how much better an external keyboard is, and how little extra weight it adds to my bag.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#332

Post by least »

caslon wrote: post #117
amelius wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so the conclusion is that the keyboard should be customizable.

No, the conclusion is that more buttons are always better. You can always customize a keyboard with minimal effort, unless you're on a really bad operating system, like any of the proprietary ones.

More buttons isn't always better because there's a limited range of motion that is reasonable for someone to type with. Having a number pad on a laptop keyboard reinforces bad ergonomics because you either need to shift your entire body to the left and have your screen off center or you have a constant and pretty severe lateral deviation in your right hand.

As for customizing a keyboard with minimal effort... it's actually easier to do that with MacOS and Windows than it is in linux, in my experience. Sure, you can do basic key remapping really easily in linux with xmodmap but if you want to do anything complicated with the built in keyboard, MacOS has Karabiner Elements which is far better than any of the built in or custom keyboard software like xcape or xkeysnail. Similarly on Windows, AutoHotKey is much easier to do complex customizations as well. I haven't really tried Kmonad but that is cross-platform so it wouldn't really be considered an advantage to linux.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#333

Post by darkwater »

lathiat wrote: post #240
johnzim wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup? The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like this.

As this thread is highlighting, in my experience there are two kinds of keyboard users. Those that love their numberpad, and those that never use it. There seems to rarely be people in the middle. On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because you can shift the keyboard over relative to the screen. On laptops this translates into people completely loathing or loving the laptop entirely :) Personally in the never use it…

> On the other hand laptops are terrible for ergonomics and daily usage anyway, it's unfortunately we've moved so far into laptops from desktops and it doesn't seem so common to dock them and use an external keyboard..

Especially considering that nowadays "docking" is pluggin in an USB-C cable from a monitor that: - is used as a large external display - powers and recharges the laptop - acts as an USB hub, with external keyboard, mouse and webcam.

If I want I can go outside to have a meeting and when I want to code, I go back to my home office. And when I commute to the work office, I can work on the train. And when I get there, I plug it in the same setup as home. Next step would be having all of this wireless but it's already near perfect IME.

I just described my setup actually :)

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#334

Post by fsflover »

techrat wrote: post #80
neogodless wrote: post #10

Obviously the "Linux-first" is a big value-add for this brand, but the hardware for the price isn't amazing. $1200 gets you a Zen 2 (previous generation) 6-core, 12-thread CPU[0], 8GB RAM, 240 GB NVME, 15" 1080p (did not see brightness/color accuracy mentioned.) But I like my laptops to come with fast refresh and a dedicated GPU, and I run Windows, so I'm not their target audience. Would love to hear how this is rece…

It's all Clevo based anyway. System76 doesn't go much beyond what they source. It's a shame, if they actually made the effort to design a laptop that went beyond its foundation, I'd be more interested. But instead it's Clevo guts, Clevo problems. Looking at the AMD laptop linked... Lots of empty space that could have been slightly optimized for a larger battery. It just seems basically thought out... not like conside…

> if they actually made the effort to design a laptop that went beyond its foundation, I'd be more interested.

Have a look at https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 then.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#335

Post by fsflover »

flatiron wrote: post #160
webmobdev wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price does seem to be on the higher side. It does satisfy most of my checklist though: - Does the hardware fully support Linux? Yes . - Does it have the latest AMD Ryzen CPU? Kind of (last gen is decent too). - Can you run other OS on it? Yes. - Is the screen glossy? No (is matte / anti-glare) . - Is the RAM soldered? No . - Is the RAM upgradeable? Yes, upto 64 GB . - Is the SSD soldered? No . - Is the SSD upgradeabl…

Look at the framework laptop too

And at Purism.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#336

Post by 3np »

Fatalist_ma wrote: post #181

Uhh I understand that good Linux support is valuable, but the price premium for that is just too high. For the base variant(5500u, 8gb, 240gb): Pangolin - 1200$ Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 - 430$[1] For a higher-end variant(5700u, 16gb, 500gb): Pangolin - 1542$ HP 15z - 640$[2] I admit these are the absolute cheapest ones I could find(using noteb.com), but even the more premium laptops like Thinkpads are way cheaper(and AFAI…

After ~10y straight of ThinkPad T-series, I won't be getting another one. The BS you have to go through to get firmware updates with important security and bug fixes is ridiculous. On paper they're in fwupd/LVFS but in practice it've very spotty. After a full day of trying other approaches, I eventually succumbed to installing Windows and Lenovo's adware-encriched update manager on a spare SSD just to be able to use my Thunderbolt port with my official Lenovo dock.

On top of that, every series have been getting worse and worse maintainability/extendability/serviciability for pretty every generation. The latest vanilla T-series are comparable to the first-gen Carbon-X1 in this regard.

...Now if only System76/any of the others in the open-laptop space could figure out a way to do more than 1080p on a 13-15" panel. It's 2021 and I can buy a decent 2K 10.1" USB-display online for $200, why are there no options for that many pixels on a new customizable laptop starting at $1200?

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#337

Post by the_pwner224 »

lathiat wrote: post #240
johnzim wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup? The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like this.

As this thread is highlighting, in my experience there are two kinds of keyboard users. Those that love their numberpad, and those that never use it. There seems to rarely be people in the middle. On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because you can shift the keyboard over relative to the screen. On laptops this translates into people completely loathing or loving the laptop entirely :) Personally in the never use it…

> On desktops it mostly doesn't matter because you can shift the keyboard over relative to the screen.

It does matter. The arrow key cluster and numpad take a lot of space, which means the left side of the keyboard (where asdf / your left hand are) and your mouse have to be very far from each other. This leads to either putting the keyboard's letter key section in the center, making your mouse be uncomfortably far to the right, or having your mouse in a natural position for your right hand, leaving your left hand way out to the left. Over time this can (and did, to me) cause posture / muscle balance issues.

Currently I'm using the Microsoft Sculpt Wireless keyboard. https://www.microsoft.com/en-ww/accessories/products/keyboar.... The main keyboard with letters and two extra columns just to the right of the letters (with no gap) means everything can be positioned perfectly. The wireless numpad is there for when you need to use it. It's a very overpriced product at $100 but works wonderfully.

Also, in college I had a tiny desk with a cabinet underneath its left side, so my chair was offset to 60/40% of the way to the right. With a full size desktop keyboard with numpad, there literally wasn't enough space for my mouse, unless I moved the keyboard very far to the left. Thus causing the issues I mentioned above. That's what got me into tiny mechanical keyboards :) I'll admit it's a somewhat niche case, but there are probably still many millions of people in the world with a similar desk setup to that for whom a full size desktop keyboard is an unhealthy option.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#338

Post by 3np »

deepsun wrote: post #191
smoldesu wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I bought an Ideapad for my mom a few months ago and I was pretty impressed with the build quality. It was plastic (as all $450 laptops are) but felt relatively rugged, and the internals were surprisingly open too. I was rather happy with the thermals too, there wasn't much we could throw at it to make it sustain uncomfortable temps.

Plastic laptop cases are objectively better than metallic ones. Plastic doesn't heat up your legs that much, and good carbon plastic is stronger than steel, weight-wise. Subjectively, metallic feels better though.

Only "objectively" by your priorities. The fact that metal heats up your legs is also a benefit (e.g. better heat transmission = better performance and component lifetime in the same environment).

As someone else noted, "strength" in material is not one-dimensional. Carbon plastic is still way more conducive to cracking, for one.

Ergo, there is no "objectively better" choice between metal/plastic/carbon in the general case, it comes down to preferences, priorities and requirements.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#339

Post by 3np »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #206
smoldesu wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I bought an Ideapad for my mom a few months ago and I was pretty impressed with the build quality. It was plastic (as all $450 laptops are) but felt relatively rugged, and the internals were surprisingly open too. I was rather happy with the thermals too, there wasn't much we could throw at it to make it sustain uncomfortable temps.

Just an anecdote, but I know someone who had an Ideapad gaming model and while it seemed solid brand new, a year or so in it started falling apart and by year two it was looking ragged just from normal usage, mostly at home on a desk or a lap (so no wear from travel or being knocked around in a bag). The issue seems to be less with structural design and particular choice of plastics that cause them to not hold up to…

On the flip side of this, I have an old 710S and apart from the now completely unusable micro-HDMI port it's held up really well throughout use and abuse over the years. Battery life holds up as well.

If only it had a less brittle video-out and TB it would be close to perfect even today, but these to otherwise minor factors unfortunately make it close to useless apart from as a spare travel device.

Re: System76 Pangolin Linux-first laptop with AMD internals now in stock

#340

Post by zumu »

m00x wrote: post #230
zumu wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thinkpads (at least the X,T and P models) tend to be a different story but even that is changing in recent years Maybe relative to Thinkpads of yesteryear, but in comparison to the field of professional laptops, they are still best in class.

I bought a consumer-grade Lenovo (Flex 15") for about $1200 CAD. While it has amazing components like the AMD Ryzen, Radeon GPU, etc. The quality of the rest of the components is trash. The trackpad keeps disconnecting, the screen is very poorly backlit, the speakers sound like headphones that came with 1990 Walkmans. It's not a good laptop even if it looks good on paper.

Yea, I've heard mixed things about IdeaPads. My comment was specifically about _Think_Pads. The names are easy to confuse but are very different in build quality.
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