Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#121

Post by notafraudster » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

whatthesmack wrote: post #99

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems that some people just entirely miss that part of their upbringing, and suffer needlessly for it for the rest of their lives. ...and make things worse for the rest of us; but god forbid the state do anything about it with proactive evidence-based early-interventions or treat the perpetrators of crime with compassion and understanding too - otherwise it's called being soft-on-crime or worse: "liberal".

I wouldn't say that only the state is capable of helping. Most organizations that help in these situations currently in the US are private, often faith-based, and non-profit. Also to mention... to challenge preconceptions about who's behind this stuff, the current US president (who many would consider "liberal" or "leftist") made great efforts and progress toward locking up lots of people ("tough on crime"), especial…

The current US president, who anyone that isn't raised on a diet of right-wing talk radio would consider a moderate Democrat (not from the left or progressive wing of the party at all), locked up lots of people in the 1990s, a period where there was general social and political appetite for widespread incarceration. At approximately the same time, a few years earlier, the last president you mention (then a private citizen) was using his money to take out ads in the newspaper calling for the execution of proven innocent black men.

Later, after being elected president, that president (who most would consider pretty politically incoherent on traditional ideological divides, and animated almost entirely on the single issue of defending the American ethnic against "others" without and within, and who spent most of his presidency calling for the broader use of violence against perceived criminals, oversaw a record return to federal capital punishment, expanded the use of paramilitary law enforcement, and directly assumed control of law enforcement using loopholes in the executive branch's authority to do so) signed a bipartisan crime reform bill he had nothing to do with at the urging of a reality tv star who is pretending to become a lawyer and who was briefly married to a mentally ill rapper who for some reason endorsed the president.

If we're looking to ascribe an ideological dimension to crime politics in the US, it would be easy: during the entire modern party system, Republicans have consistently been to the right of Democrats on crime (even in periods where Democrats have been, in a global sense, to the right of the median). The bulk of major crime bills have been nearly unanimous consent, including both the 1994 Crime bill and the First Step Act, but the contents of those bills have compromises where the right seeks "tougher" provisions and the left seeks more conciliatory provisions.

Court politics has been even more obviously partisan. Of the current Supreme Court justices, Thomas and Alito favour obviously expanding the use of capital punishment and view most litigation related to it a liberal plot to undermine the justice system; Breyer and Sotomayor have signalled they believe the constitution more or less mandates abolition. It's a clear as day divide. Most other criminal justice issues have the same dimensions in the courts, and even lower in the circuit courts as well.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#122

Post by nickff » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

liquidise wrote: post #43

I found my way to court feeds (namely Judge Middleton's[1]) during Covid. Incidentally i'm listening to Aug 19's proceedings now. Seeing these specific clips go viral feels like a microcosm of modern consumption habits. There is so much to learn about the legal system and, more broadly, about the nature of people in trying circumstances watching court proceedings. The pureness of exchanges and the total lack of edito…

>"I have a theory that if more people watched court proceedings (daily misdemeanor, not just OJ/Floyd cutups), political opinions might shift toward humanizing both the accused and the victims."

There has been a lot of work on this, showing that people's reactions to newspaper stories about court cases are polarized, but similar people on juries generally find common ground. I don't have any citations handy, but I'm sure they're easy to find.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#123

Post by Aerroon » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

cryptnotic wrote: post #109

markstos wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies of identical twins with different upbringing has found that outcomes are like 70% genetic and 30% environment. Anecdotally, I grew up an environment with good parents and siblings with different genetic parents. One of us had been in jail and juvy several times by age 18 due in part to impulse-control related problems. Today a diagnosis of significant ADHD might have been given. Then it was not as well unders…

> Today a diagnosis of significant ADHD might have been given. The hyperactivity component of ADHD is often expressed as impulsivity, so that fits.

Emotional disregulation seems to be correlated with ADHD. I'm not sure if it's used as a diagnostic criteria, but people with ADHD discuss it frequently.

https://www.verywellmind.com/sensitivities-and-adhd-20473

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#124

Post by amanaplanacanal » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

saurik wrote: post #104

jjulius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you knew you were in trouble at work, would you show up to your disciplinary hearing/meeting/whathaveyou with "Buttfucker 3000" written over your name on your badge in plain sight? The same thing generally applies to the courtroom - it's showing a lack of respect for, and understanding of, the situation one is in. Were a judge to think they may want to give an individual a lenient sentence, they may change their m…

> If you knew you were in trouble at work, would you show up to your disciplinary hearing/meeting/whathaveyou with "Buttfucker 3000" written over your name on your badge in plain sight? > The same thing generally applies to the courtroom - it's showing a lack of respect for, and understanding of, the situation one is in. Others have said this, but I want to underscore it with different phrasing: you seem to not under…

When it comes to determining guilt, yes, justice should be blind. When it comes to sentencing, judges take all kinds of things into account. If I were a defendant, I'd want to keep that firmly in mind.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#125

Post by Aerroon » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

tclancy wrote: post #56

ryandrake wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This young man appears to be able to go from 0 to 100 very quickly with little self control. Maybe this is Captain Obvious speaking, but poor impulse control seems like the single common denominator among a whole load of social ills that consistently land people in trouble (legal, financial, social, across lots of spectrums). From crimes of opportunity/passion, to short-tempers and "blowing up" on people in public…

>Seems that some people just entirely miss that part of their upbringing I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable rage from parents who were raised the same. It's a cycle/ disease. "My parents hit me and I turned out fine" is often a revealing statement. And a defense of parents who may not deserve it but coping with that is harder.

>I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable rage from parents who were raised the same. It's a cycle/ disease.

Maybe it's not a cycle, but genetic instead. It would appear like a cycle because the children will end up doing what the parents did, but they might simply be predisposed to it.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#126

Post by kempbellt » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

tobr wrote: post #95

jjulius wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five responses to your question have all said it shows a lack of respect for the judicial system and the situation one is in, and you are essentially spitting in the face of the judge. I truly don't know how to make it any clearer to you than that. But I must ask again; would you show up to any kind of disciplinary hearing for yourself with "Buttfucker 3000" showing on your name badge?

You really don’t have to ask, because what I personally would it wouldn’t do in various situations has nothing to do with what’s an appropriate response for someone who’s job it is to impartially evaluate evidence. Even if the defendant literally did spit in the face of the judge, a good judge should not react in a way that would give anyone reason to think they let that affect their ruling.

Can't help but agree.

There is no way to know that the defendant's Zoom screen-name was set intentionally, or even with his knowledge. Prior to showing up on the screen the judge was already leaking bias - "Then we'll bring this...fool in".

While I am inclined to "assume" that it was done intentionally, assumptions is not what the judicial system is about.

"Your name isn't Buttfucker 3000, you yol-hole" along with the initial remark are both incredibly unprofessional (and worrying) things to hear from a person who's literal job is to pass unbiased judgement. Name calling from a judge, really?

Yes, the dude was probably being an ass, but it doesn't matter. The judge judged the guy without concrete evidence and displayed a ton of personal distaste and bias against the defendant over the following minutes. He should asked the defendant to fix his screen name and moved on. This is not the kind of behavior you want to see in a judge who presides over cases of any real meaning.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#127

Post by DFHippie » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

tobr wrote: post #95

jjulius wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five responses to your question have all said it shows a lack of respect for the judicial system and the situation one is in, and you are essentially spitting in the face of the judge. I truly don't know how to make it any clearer to you than that. But I must ask again; would you show up to any kind of disciplinary hearing for yourself with "Buttfucker 3000" showing on your name badge?

You really don’t have to ask, because what I personally would it wouldn’t do in various situations has nothing to do with what’s an appropriate response for someone who’s job it is to impartially evaluate evidence. Even if the defendant literally did spit in the face of the judge, a good judge should not react in a way that would give anyone reason to think they let that affect their ruling.

You are focusing too much on the immediate context. Yes, the judge must remain impartial and resist being provoked, but the judicial system depends on people's respect. This being this case, their behavior isn't the only thing they must take into consideration. They must consider how this behavior will be interpreted by others. If they are the platonic ideal of impartiality but they are perceived as fools, this weakens the influence of their decisions. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not omniscient, so I'm not sure how accurate their assessment of things is, but this is certainly the reasoning. They need the court to be treated with respect, and to be perceived as respected and worthy of respect, so they don't brook people appearing before the court behaving in a way that they believe will be perceived as making fools of them.

The trial before them is not their only concern.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#128

Post by nradov » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

KittenInABox wrote: post #108

whatthesmack wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that only the state is capable of helping. Most organizations that help in these situations currently in the US are private, often faith-based, and non-profit. Also to mention... to challenge preconceptions about who's behind this stuff, the current US president (who many would consider "liberal" or "leftist") made great efforts and progress toward locking up lots of people ("tough on crime"), especial…

I'd actually be really interested in what reformations could be attributed to the Trump administration when it comes to aspects of the justice system that disproportionately target minorities. I'm not very educated on the subject so I'd love some analysis available for a layman if possible. If not, a specialized analysis is fine and I'll just glean what I can glean.

It was primarily the First Step Act, which President Trump signed in 2018. It eliminated some sentencing disparities which had disproportionately targeted minorities.

https://www.bop.gov/inmates/fsa/overview.jsp

(I'm not taking a position on which president was better or worse on this issue.)

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#129

Post by kempbellt » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

jjulius wrote: post #83

tobr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge is the one who is obstructing the proceedings by needlessly scolding the defendant and bringing attention to an embarrassing mistake.

Mistakes like this happen frequently whether the proceedings take place over Zoom, or in person in a courthouse. As multiple comments have pointed out, it's about showing a basic level of respect and awareness of your situation. This would be akin to accidentally showing up to a courtroom in a suit and forgetting that there's a decorative penis pin on your jacket because the last time you wore it you were at some sor…

It's very easy to click a link and join a Zoom meeting without knowing what your screen name is set to ahead of time.

HN is an echo chamber of tech-savvy people (myself included), but for anyone who's job isn't to work on a computer for 8 hours a day, this type of mistake can happen completely without intent.

In regards to the "decorative penis pin" scenario. Benefit-of-the-doubt is a basic principle of the judicial system. It is completely feasible to do something like this unintentionally. A good judge should ask the pin be removed, and move on. If the defendant refuses to remove it, handle that situation appropriately.

In this same video, the judge asked someone to remove their hat. The hat was removed, and everyone moved on. This is how professionals do their jobs.

Re: Zoom court hearing postponed after accused found in same location as witness

#130

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

whatthesmack wrote: post #99

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems that some people just entirely miss that part of their upbringing, and suffer needlessly for it for the rest of their lives. ...and make things worse for the rest of us; but god forbid the state do anything about it with proactive evidence-based early-interventions or treat the perpetrators of crime with compassion and understanding too - otherwise it's called being soft-on-crime or worse: "liberal".

I wouldn't say that only the state is capable of helping. Most organizations that help in these situations currently in the US are private, often faith-based, and non-profit. Also to mention... to challenge preconceptions about who's behind this stuff, the current US president (who many would consider "liberal" or "leftist") made great efforts and progress toward locking up lots of people ("tough on crime"), especial…

> Also to mention... to challenge preconceptions about who's behind this stuff, the current US president (who many would consider "liberal" or "leftist") made great efforts and progress toward locking up lots of people ("tough on crime"), especially minorities, in the past.

Biden has never been a leftist (not even in the extremely loose sense that the progressive wing of the Democratic Party might be considered “leftist”), he’s always been associated with the centrist/conservative wing of the Party, and that was even more true in the 1990s (when he was involved in the crime legislation you are talking about) then in his post-Senate career (where he has been involved in national campaigns where the centrist faction is weaker within the party than it was in the mid-late 1990s, which were pretty much the peak of its dominance.)

> The last president (who many would consider more to the right of the political spectrum)

I think “corrupt authoritarian opportunist who seized on a perceived opportunity in the more right-leaning party, and particularly with mobilizing its extremist fringes” than describing Trump actually being ideologically to the right in some kind of coherent way that motivates policy over more immediate calculations of personal gain and opportunism.