I'm not sure what anyone expected when we cut China off of chip IP. We did the same thing in the US, we had a policy of just straight up encouraging people to memorize patents before they immigrated over, and paying for their family to immigrate with them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
Are there more examples of this? I want to cite them every time people defend intellectual property.
Arm China Has Gone Rogue
271–280 of 686 posts
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have you an example of a western invention not based on existing technology?
Depends on what you mean by "existing technology". Do electronic devices using quantum effects in solid state materials count? There you have the whole semiconductor industry. What about exploiting the behavior of charge carriers in vacuum? There you have the whole vacuum tube industry. Etc. etc. Before these things existed, nothing even remotely similar was being utilized by human civilization in our technological v…
That was invented by Jagadish Chandra Bose in Bangladesh, who built working millimeter-wave radios using Schottky diodes in 01894. Of course, he didn't understand the quantum effects, but then, semiconductor diodes were in wide industrial use (mostly in the rich West) for decades before Shockley's Equation in 01949.
The quantum theory was largely a Western discovery during those 55 years, but also included significant contributions from non-Western people like Shinichiro Tomonaga, Yoshiro Nishina, Leo Esaki, Tsung-Dao Lee, Hideki Yukawa, and Hantaro Nagaoka, and of course since 01949 quantum theory has been a field of investigation dominated by non-Western people. As you may be aware, there have been significant improvements in solid-state electronics since 01949, including full-color LEDs that permit LED lighting (due to Shuji Nakamura) and the switch to MOSFETs (due to Mohammed Atalla and Dawon Kahng, who were not from the West but were in the West) which eliminated the power consumption barrier that restricted 01960s electronics to dozens of transistors on a chip.
China in particular has had a pretty bad couple of centuries, in between being invaded by the US, England, Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium, the Austro-Hungarian empire, Russia (twice), and Japan (three times), having two of the most ruinous civil wars in human history, and having the worst famine in human history. So it's been innovating a bit below par, though it seems to be doing okay now.
> What about exploiting the behavior of charge carriers in vacuum? There you have the whole vacuum tube industry.
It does seem that the whole cathode-ray thing was a Western discovery, but it was built on the Hindu ayurvedic techniques of mercury distillation that formed the basis for Arabic and then Western alchemy (necessary for the Sprengel pump, which was for decades the only source of a hard enough vacuum); also, building the apparatus drew on the Mesopotamian techniques of glassmaking, which are usually considered to hail from Asia Minor, though some believe they originated in Egypt.
(It's possible that the Hindus imported the techniques of mercury distillation from China, but that is far enough back that it's difficult to know. At any rate, the Europeans got them from the Arabs, who got them from the Hindus.)
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#273People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…
> Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. Where this comes to a head, and where western capitalistic governments seem ill equipped to handle it sufficiently, is in how China itself can and does act like one giant super conglomerate company and uses that to bully smaller companies because they are bigger than anything around. Western governments are loathe to intervene in business dealing w…
Yes, that is literally what the US has always done. The government can ban you from exporting anything it wants, which explicitly includes tech transfer.
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#274People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…
SoftBank sold ARM to China, not Western companies.
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#275Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#276The PRC isn’t fucking around. They’re playing for the whole show and the West is bringing a significantly weaker game than it did against a significantly dumber geopolitical adversary last time. Being England or whatever isn’t the end of the world, there is life after global hegemony, but e.g. the USA should be realistic about the fact that e.g. shit like a legislature whose job is to get nothing done isn’t how you w…
The West and Americans (in my experience) take for granted that civil rights, free speech, democracy, and other values automatically create better outcomes than authoritarianism. This is how it was taught to me, and it seems baked into the culture. Unfortunately, the reality is that while (in my opinion) liberal values create better outcomes, it takes care and concerted effort to get the benefits. A democracy isn't a…
Also, if you were under the impression that they locked down once and beat the virus, then you'd be surprised to find out that they've had to do multiple recurring region-wide lock-downs all throughout, even up until now.
August 2021 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/02/millions-under...
June 2021 https://www.scmp.com/coronavirus/greater-china/article/31380...
January 2021 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/world/asia/china-covid-lo...
I don't know what state youre from; I went through lockdowns too but I've gone to restaurants and movie theaters and traveled to other places freely as well. If you didn't, that's on your state, just like there were times that people in Shanghai had more freedom than people in Shenzhen, and vice versa.
Your third paragraph is hard to comment on briefly and partly subjective, I can't comment on 1/6 because it's still an ongoing investigation with the FBI reporting a lack of evidence that it was some centrally coordinated plot. Sometimes riots get out of hand, we should be thankful that unlike a certain riot in 1989 we didn't roll out the tanks and run them over. Instead we arrested them all and they are going through due process. The foreign engagement failures of Afghanistan and Iraq don't exist in a vacuum. We've been in Germany, South Korea, and Japanese for decades and those are going quite well - you win some you lose some. When South Koreans went under repressive rule by Park Jung Hee, you could've said our nation building failed, but we held on and now it's a thriving country that exports its culture worldwide. As for social mobility, I'm an ethnic minority and no matter how bad you think social mobility is, and it's not easy, you do not have better chances anywhere other than the US and Europe. Make of that what you will, I've experienced it. First in my family to go to college, got a job in tech and all that. Believe me if you want. I appreciate the social mobility here and acknowledge that my family couldn't have done it without the civil rights movement of decades prior. I also understand why Americans look down on their own history, but the thing is contemporary Chinese folks do not look down on theirs. They are proud, they want their country to be the best, they want to win. More power to them, but the "Chinese Dream" is only for them. You can go there as a student, be an expat, but it's almost impossible to become a citizen. They are not a nation of immigrants. At best you can be a permanent resident, preferably if you have a western passport. Africans there are not treated as kindly:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079497/us-w...
https://news.yahoo.com/no-blacks-evicted-harassed-targeted-1...
They didn't get the support of allies mass protesting police brutality in every city like Americans did. People like me don't appreciate the self-defeating sentiment that China's ascension is inevitable and well deserved because of our bad history. I don't mean to detract from your points too much. We do need better education, better healthcare, a more prudent foreign policy and all that. I'm just adding more context and my input that all hope is not lost and that western values are inferior to Chinese ones. All hope is not lost. We don't want to get to the point where we say "welp that settles it the only way to improve our standard of living is to become repressive authoritarian regimes too"
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#277So, I cannot see this sort of thing stopping, until we see a point where non-Chinese investors revolt when they hear about the company they've invested going into China, rather than cheering. If investors have had such a change of heart at this point, I have not seen it.
If it's taken for granted that its impossible to make profits on the Chinese market, the best outcome for a company is to sell their IP to China and make sure the markets are kept completely segregated.
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have an honest question: why could China catch up to the western countries in many verticals and even become the dominant player, while in history the western could stay lightyears ahead of developing countries, no matter how hard the developing countries tried, with or without government interference or industrial espionage? What's changed?
> What's changed? Colonialism ended. The west was not light years ahead of, say, India, when it was first colonized. In the process of colonizing it, India's industrialization was stopped. Countries didn't somehow fall into 'developed' and 'undeveloped' buckets by divine fiat. The latter tended to be invaded by the former, with the occupiers focusing more on wealth extraction, than development. Once that parasitic re…
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#279I remember when bitcoin miners were transitioning from FPGA to ASIC... I nearly threw out my back from laughter when the Chinese deceitfully copied the masks with abandon, while also delaying fulfillment with longer and longer burn in tests.
Ha! "Burn in tests" indeed, that is pretty funny.
Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
Things will get really ugly once you codify special classes citizens and other US persons. It won't happen even though conservative congresspeople have been pushing for it for decades.
Are you sure about that? It's the norm in Europe. E.g. you can't work for UK security services (MI5, MI6) unless one of your parents was also British, you lived in the UK for a while and you might be required to give up dual citizenship.
I think it's actually similar for US security clearances, though not explicitly codified like that.
IIRC, if you're a dual citizen, you have to renounce the non-American one. Apparently it's not good enough to say "I'll renounce it if you ask," since that's conditional (on them requesting it). You have to renounce it unconditionally. I think that even applies to allied countries (e.g. no US-Canadian dual citizens).
I think the US would also reject a clearance if the applicant had relatives that were in a situation that could be used to exploit them (e.g. foreign nationals, living in a non-friendly country, etc).
Basically, the idea is that you shouldn't have any (discoverable) competing loyalties, and you shouldn't have anything in your life that makes you vulnerable to manipulation.
Disclaimer: I have no actual expertise in this area, but I did spend an afternoon browsing the government website where they described security clearance rejection appeals.