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Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

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Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#181

Post by snet0 »

geoduck14 wrote: post #164
oldgradstudent wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Israel and some recent studies No, it does not. The data from Israel only supports the claim that immunity from infection is longer lasting than from the vaccine, which shoul…

>The data from Israel only supports the claim that immunity from infection is longer lasting than from the vaccine, which should not have been a surprise to anyone. I find that surprising. Why did you expect that? Why should I have expected that?

The vaccine is effectively a small part of the virus, for the immune system to learn to recognise. The virus itself has many parts for which an immune response can be developed.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#182

Post by aceazzameen »

nicoffeine wrote: post #179
ManBlanket wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression anything we could learn which doesn't support a foregone hyperbolic conclusion gets vastly ignored by the media and misconstrued as fringe in the court of popular opinion. All of this started with panic-buying toilet paper and baker's yeast from the grocery stores. I'm not surprised despite a considerable majority of US citizens being vaccinated, all reporting is underscored by pandemic levels of…

Millions of people have died in less than two years, 650,000 where I live in the US. More specifically here in Florida, ICU capacity is at 93%, and cases/hospitalizations/deaths are at record highs for the entire duration of the pandemic. People are being turned away for cancer treatments because there is simply no room at the hospital. The peak of daily deaths and infections in our state is right now . This is news…

Exactly. Modern day healthcare is keeping most Covid patients alive. But the disease is also putting a strain on modern day healthcare more than anything else ever has.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#183

Post by munk-a »

jyounker wrote: post #167
logicalmonster wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> COVID-19, on the other hand, has an overall 1.66% chance of killing someone (38,043,754 cases, 629,644 deaths). An honest, apples to apples statistical comparison here would compare 18-24 year old death rates to 18-24 year old heart problems risk, not lumping all deaths regardless of age together. > I would rather take a 0.002% non-fatal risk than a 1.66% fatal risk. Statistical problems aside, I’m happy if you tak…

The unvaccinated are volunteering themselves as breeders for the next stronger and nastier version of covid, and they pose an active danger to those who cannot be vaccinated.

And, honestly, those who have been vaccinated. Covid-19 has been observed to spread more easily in populations with large unvaccinated proportion and end up infecting (and killing) a larger number of vaccinated people.

Additionally, I am extremely concerned that their irresponsible actions are going to let Covid-19 mutate enough that it can work out a variant that the vaccine will be ineffective against.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#184

Post by munk-a »

logicalmonster wrote: post #142
strenholme wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the linked study [1] is saying is that unvaccinated people who get COVID-19 are even more likely to get Myocarditis than vaccinated people ; it counters the allegation that people should not get vaccinated because of the risk of Myocarditis. Even if the vaccine increased the risk (it doesn’t), the risk of COVID-19 is orders of magnitude higher than the risk of the Myocarditis heart condition. There have been, fr…

> COVID-19, on the other hand, has an overall 1.66% chance of killing someone (38,043,754 cases, 629,644 deaths). An honest, apples to apples statistical comparison here would compare 18-24 year old death rates to 18-24 year old heart problems risk, not lumping all deaths regardless of age together. > I would rather take a 0.002% non-fatal risk than a 1.66% fatal risk. Statistical problems aside, I’m happy if you tak…

> I think all the unvaccinated want is the same absolute right to decide the same for themselves.

And I, personally, refuse to grant them that courtesy. If you want to smoke twelve packs a day (while living in a country with no healthcare) then feel free buddy - but not getting vaccinated effects everyone - including those who choose to help move us past this pandemic by getting vaccinated.

This isn't a question of individual rights vs. the authoritarianism in the same way that wanting to be a thief isn't an individual decision. You can't be a thief without stealing from other people so we've agreed as a society to make it illegal - the same goes for vaccination. The US is currently tip-toeing on a knifes edge trying to avoid an open revolt of stupid people while also trying to make the vaccine mandatory - that open revolt would result in a severe jump in case count... but the government is facing facts that simply coddling people won't make the pandemic go away.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#185

Post by criticaltinker »

strenholme wrote: post #127
incrudible wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first principle for vaccines to be administered ethically is that the benefit must be outweigh the risk. As trials have not completed and more information on vaccine side-effects is yet to be accumulated, this risk/benefit can be assessed only speculatively. For instance, this[1] study suggests that the risk of Myocarditis from COVID in young men is six times higher from an infection than from a vaccination. If w…

What the linked study [1] is saying is that unvaccinated people who get COVID-19 are even more likely to get Myocarditis than vaccinated people ; it counters the allegation that people should not get vaccinated because of the risk of Myocarditis. Even if the vaccine increased the risk (it doesn’t), the risk of COVID-19 is orders of magnitude higher than the risk of the Myocarditis heart condition. There have been, fr…

> COVID-19, on the other hand, has an overall 1.66% chance of killing someone (38,043,754 cases, 629,644 deaths)

What you calculated is the case fatality rate (CFR), but the infection fatality rate (IFR) is a better representation of risk from SARS-COV-2 infection.

The global average IFR is recently estimated to be ~0.15% [1], which is extremely skewed by age.

All estimates of age stratified IFR show a gradient that decreases by orders of magnitude with age - we're talking IFRs below 0.003% for healthy young adults and children [2][3].

Furthermore, there is substantial evidence that the CFRs & IFRs are significant overestimates [5]. This completely changes the risk-reward tradeoff for many people.

I am not advocating against vaccination (it is a powerful tool that saves lives) - just spreading knowledge and illustrating the fact that everyone has a different risk-reward profile based on their age and health, and should make personal health decisions accordingly.

[1] Reconciling estimates of global spread and infection fatality rates of COVID- 19: An overview of systematic evaluations https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/eci.13...

[2] Infection fatality rate of COVID-19 inferred from seroprevalence data https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7947934/

[3] COVID-19 antibody seroprevalence in Santa Clara County, California https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/50/2/410/6146069

[4] Model-informed COVID-19 vaccine prioritization strategies by age and serostatus https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/371/6532/916.full...

[5] Evaluating the massive underreporting and undertesting of COVID-19 cases in multiple global epicenters https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S253104372...

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#186

Post by superkuh »

Animats wrote: post #36
UncleOxidant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't there more of a push for emergency use of intranasal vaccines? Apparently there are some in the testing phase, but I think if they were given as much resources as the mRNA vaccines were we might have already had an intranasal vaccine in use by now. The Israelis have one in testing but it still sounds like it's a long ways off from being deployed on a large scale. The other advantage of an intransal vaccine…

Here's a good explanation of why.[1] There are several intranasal coronavirus vaccines in test. There's only one approved nasal vaccine now, for anything: FluMist. It's not recommended for people over 50. There have been previous failures. Intranasal vaccines are hard to make work. Think of the current mRNA vaccines as a minimum viable product. The basic formulation was computed days after the virus was sequenced and…

Intranasal vaccination should probably not be the only or first vaccination. It should be a booster after intramuscular vaccination so we can finally stop the spread. Additionally, since the epithelium is exposed to the outside world by definition intranasal vaccines are generally much safer and with fewer side effects.

The "failures" of Flumist (ie, ~50% efficiency) were later recapitulated by the normal intramuscular tetravalent vaccines when they mis-picked in many times in the mid-2010s (after H1N1 emerged). But for some reason people only remember the one time with Flumist. It's sort of similar to how people remember and think all seagate HDDs are faulty because of the one bad series of drives a decade and a half ago.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#187

Post by superkuh »

unanswered wrote: post #49
Animats wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a good explanation of why.[1] There are several intranasal coronavirus vaccines in test. There's only one approved nasal vaccine now, for anything: FluMist. It's not recommended for people over 50. There have been previous failures. Intranasal vaccines are hard to make work. Think of the current mRNA vaccines as a minimum viable product. The basic formulation was computed days after the virus was sequenced and…

This raises an interesting question: is someone who is waiting for an effective intranasal vaccine to get something more like sterilizing immunity, and foregoing the less-effective vaccine meanwhile, anti-vax?

It doesn't raise that question at all because both I and the references I linked say it should be used *as a booster after intramuscular vaccination*.

You raised that scenario out of the blue and it has nothing to do with what anyone suggests.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#188

Post by superkuh »

rolph wrote: post #31
UncleOxidant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't there more of a push for emergency use of intranasal vaccines? Apparently there are some in the testing phase, but I think if they were given as much resources as the mRNA vaccines were we might have already had an intranasal vaccine in use by now. The Israelis have one in testing but it still sounds like it's a long ways off from being deployed on a large scale. The other advantage of an intransal vaccine…

nasal mucosal immunity[IgA] is short term relative to humoral immunity[IgG; IgM]; this however would be a good prophylactic approach, as the nasal vault is a major contributor to transmission mechanisms

Yes, the neutralizing antibodies go away relatively quickly but now you have mucosal resident T cells trained on spike epitopes ready to go right at the start of the infection before things get out of hand.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#189

Post by georgeplusplus »

oldgradstudent wrote: post #67
bananabiscuit wrote: post #3

The spike protein targeting antibodies produced by the vaccine do indeed target a wider range of spike mutations than the spike protein antibodies from previous infection. However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Isra…

> However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Israel and some recent studies No, it does not. The data from Israel only supports the claim that immunity from infection is longer lasting than from the vaccine, which shoul…

>>>> The data from Israel only supports the claim that immunity from infection is longer lasting than from the vaccine, which should not have been a surprise to anyone.

Apparently it is a surprise for USA and Europe as the former only recognize infection based immunity for three months and the latter recognizes it for 6 months, while some EU member states recognize vaccine based immunity for 8 months.

please do not make stuff up to fit your narrative.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#190

Post by angelzen »

exhilaration wrote: post #131
faeyanpiraat wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, the number of vaccinated people who get infected and require hospitalization is quite low.

You remember correctly: More than 99% of recent deaths were among the unvaccinated, infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci said earlier this month on NBC's Meet the Press, while Walensky noted on Friday that unvaccinated people accounted for over 97% of hospitalizations. https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1017002907/u-s-covid-deaths-a...

That is wild. The situation in UK is nowhere near '99% unvaccinated suffer terrible outcome'.

On 20th August, Public Health England published a report that is quite a bit more balanced. From Table 5, pp 22-23, Delta cases:

    overnight inpatient admissions (inclusion#)

    all ages
    unknown                      99
For all adults percent fully vaccinated is 75%, whereas for https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833

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