Live data from Hacker News

Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

directorsblog.nih.gov

61–70 of 250 posts

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#61
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is referred to as a polyvalent vaccine, and it is a good thing to do once we understand enough about the antigens in question to incorporate both in one shot. There is nothing of course precluding two different vaccines of differenct valence, and we have been doing this for a short time now, when we combine single jab mRna vaccines, with adenoviral vectored vaccines, there is very slight sequence variation betwe…

it also generates immunity to the adenoviral vector proteins

yes and this has been the big setback for many years this is why we dont have a lot of these vector vaccines.

if someone is immune to adenovirus they typically destroy the vaccine before antigen can be presented. this reduces prophylactic opportunities regarding serial innoculation with adenovirus vector, regardless of the cassette load

i am one of those people, having worked with adenovirus, as well as coronavirus, thus i am obligated to non adenoviral vaccine, and made out quite well during my infection with SARS-1, and with SARS-2

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#62
post #59

The spike protein targeting antibodies produced by the vaccine do indeed target a wider range of spike mutations than the spike protein antibodies from previous infection. However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Isra…

Another consequence of this is that, theoretically, the virus could mutate and be unrecognizable by the antibodies produced by the vaccine.

The same could be said for convalescent immunity too.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#63
post #59

The spike protein targeting antibodies produced by the vaccine do indeed target a wider range of spike mutations than the spike protein antibodies from previous infection. However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Isra…

Another consequence of this is that, theoretically, the virus could mutate and be unrecognizable by the antibodies produced by the vaccine.

One reason the vaccines target the spike protein is that it's how the virus breaks into human cells.

It it mutates to a different spike shape, it's very unlikely that it will keep that breakin power.

Or at least that is the assumption :)

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#64

There's a critical point I think is getting lost in the shuffle: vaccine immunity may be different from natural immunity, but (1) it does seem to protect against severe cases, (2) precisely because the protection is imperfect, the first infection you get after being vaccinated should train the immune system in a similar way as an unvaccinated infection. So to me, the real question is, what is your immunity like after…

And then the question is, should you as a vaccinated healthy person mind getting infected in the sense that it can shield you maybe even more from future variants or is this a dangerous game to play?

[deleted]

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#65
> A third difference is that natural infection only exposes the body to the virus in the respiratory tract (unless the illness is very severe), while the vaccine is delivered to muscle, where the immune system may have an even better chance of seeing it and responding vigorously.

But the respiratrory tract is constantly exposed to the external world, wheras the muscles are typically protected by the skin... Therefore I find this fact counterintuitive.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#66

I just learned last week that my COVID antibody count from the vaccine is zero. Since I'm on an immunosuppressing medication that wipes out the B cells in my bloodstream, this isn't really all that surprising to me. I learned about this because I'm in a medical study, and other people in the study who take the same medication also don't produce any COVID antibodies in response to the vaccine. What's interesting is th…

Is it possible that your side effects are a result of your immune system reacting against the delivery mechanism (PEG or adenovirus) of the vaccine? Here's one source suggesting this may occur: https://sanchakblog.wordpress.com/2020/12/06/mrna-vaccines-b...

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#67

The spike protein targeting antibodies produced by the vaccine do indeed target a wider range of spike mutations than the spike protein antibodies from previous infection. However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Isra…

> However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Israel and some recent studies

No, it does not.

The data from Israel only supports the claim that immunity from infection is longer lasting than from the vaccine, which should not have been a surprise to anyone.

It does not support any specific mechanistic explanation.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#68
post #19

The spike protein targeting antibodies produced by the vaccine do indeed target a wider range of spike mutations than the spike protein antibodies from previous infection. However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Isra…

I was confused about that as well. The article suggests that targeting "other portions of the spike protein" (as immune systems previously infected with COVID do) results in the immune system being _less_ robust against variants of the virus than targeting "places on the RBD" (as immune systems exposed to Moderna's mRNA vaccine do): > Specifically, antibodies elicited by the mRNA vaccine were more focused to the RBD…

> Why is the article saying the opposite?

The cited study in OP may have a slightly pro-vaccine bias, potentially because two authors have "the potential to receive a share of IP revenue" on a relevant patent, and because one author consults for Moderna. Regardless, the study presents scientifically accurate findings, but in a few places it tries to stretch those into questionable conclusions. For example, the authors write:

> At first glance, the RBD targeting of the vaccine sera neutralization might seem likely to increase susceptibility to viral mutations, but the rest of our results suggest that this MAY not be the case. [4]

So keep that tilt in mind when reading it.

> one might expect targeting a wider variety of places on on the COVID spike protein to result in better immunity against variants

Yes this is good intuition, here are excerpts from other literature illustrating why targeting a wide variety of SARS-COV-2 proteins can provide better immunity. In fact, this reasoning is why ongoing vaccine research is investigating formulations beyond the current solely spike protein focused vaccines. Notably, one shortcoming of the current mRNA vaccine formulations is that they do not induce nucleocapsid (N) protein antibodies - whereas natural infection does.

> The nucleocapsid protein of SARS-CoV-2 has been suggested to be an important target for T cell responses. [1]

> Firstly, this protein contains conserved cross-reactive T cell epitopes that are present among different coronaviruses, suggesting that it could be an ideal target for universal coronavirus vaccines. [1]

> Secondly, the nucleocapsid protein is among the most abundant structural proteins in the coronavirus lifecycle, which may facilitate early antigen presentation and recognition by T cells. [1]

> Previous knowledge on other related coronaviruses and the prompt sequencing of the SARS-CoV-2 genome early in the pandemic allowed to identify the spike (S) and the nucleocapsid (N) structural proteins as major targets of antibodies. [2]

> The surface glycoprotein S, which contains the receptor-binding domain (RBD), has a better known function in immunity and is the leading antigen candidate for vaccine development. N is smaller than S, lacks a glycosylation site, and is extensively used in leading serodiagnostics kits due to its abundant expression during infection and early antibody response but its immunological relevance is less established. [2]

> N forms ribonucleoprotein complexes during the virion assembly process by binding to the viral RNA genome and packing it into long helical structures. Its main function is to regulate viral RNA transcription during replication, promoting the synthesis of its own proteins while interfering with the metabolism, protein translation, and proliferation of the infected host cell. During the process of infection, N dissociates itself from the genome and is exposed to the host immune system, and its high immunogenicity has also prompted its exploration as vaccine target. [2]

> Interestingly, significant protein similarity between SARS-CoV-1, SARS-CoV-2, and other HCoV has been reported for N, including a highly conserved motif in the N-terminal (NT) half of the protein (FYYLGTGP) and relevant immunodominant epitope regions. [2]

> Evidence from multiple experimental studies showing that single RBD point mutations can lead to resistance to neutralizing convalescent plasma from multiple donors suggests that specific single mutants may be able to evade spike-targeting vaccinal immunity in many individuals and rapidly lead to spread of vaccine-resistant SARS-CoV-2. [3]

[1] Combining spike- and nucleocapsid-based vaccines improves distal control of SARS-CoV-2 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(21)01108-6....

[2] Immunogenicity and crossreactivity of antibodies to the nucleocapsid protein of SARS-CoV-2: utility and limitations in seroprevalence and immunity studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7879156/

[3] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/

[4] Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#69

There's a critical point I think is getting lost in the shuffle: vaccine immunity may be different from natural immunity, but (1) it does seem to protect against severe cases, (2) precisely because the protection is imperfect, the first infection you get after being vaccinated should train the immune system in a similar way as an unvaccinated infection. So to me, the real question is, what is your immunity like after…

And then the question is, should you as a vaccinated healthy person mind getting infected in the sense that it can shield you maybe even more from future variants or is this a dangerous game to play?

I think it's all about timing. Right now in Oregon our hospitals are full. So the less people getting infected right now the better.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#70

There's a critical point I think is getting lost in the shuffle: vaccine immunity may be different from natural immunity, but (1) it does seem to protect against severe cases, (2) precisely because the protection is imperfect, the first infection you get after being vaccinated should train the immune system in a similar way as an unvaccinated infection. So to me, the real question is, what is your immunity like after…

It seems like the article is saying that vaccine immunity is actually more robust that natural immunity though.

If that's the case, then they should retract and work towards understanding why their methodology failed so miserably.

The data from Israel shows an order of magnitude better immunity from prior infection than the vaccine.

Post reply on HN