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Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

directorsblog.nih.gov

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Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#31

Post by rolph »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #17
superkuh wrote: post #15

Intramuscular vaccinations are the most important first step and will keep hospitalization down. But intramuscular vaccination for respiratory viruses does not provide long lasting immunity to the surface mucosa tissues of the upper respiratory tract. The IgG antibodies in body serum do seep into the lower lungs and provide robust protection from serious disease, but they do not prevent infections very long in the no…

Why isn't there more of a push for emergency use of intranasal vaccines? Apparently there are some in the testing phase, but I think if they were given as much resources as the mRNA vaccines were we might have already had an intranasal vaccine in use by now. The Israelis have one in testing but it still sounds like it's a long ways off from being deployed on a large scale. The other advantage of an intransal vaccine…

nasal mucosal immunity[IgA] is short term relative to humoral immunity[IgG; IgM]; this however would be a good prophylactic approach, as the nasal vault is a major contributor to transmission mechanisms

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#32

Post by flatiron »

pajamanaut wrote: post #29
civilized wrote: post #25

There's a critical point I think is getting lost in the shuffle: vaccine immunity may be different from natural immunity, but (1) it does seem to protect against severe cases, (2) precisely because the protection is imperfect, the first infection you get after being vaccinated should train the immune system in a similar way as an unvaccinated infection. So to me, the real question is, what is your immunity like after…

It seems like the article is saying that vaccine immunity is actually more robust that natural immunity though.

For spike proteins. Not for the other targets you get with natural immunity.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#33

Post by civilized »

pajamanaut wrote: post #29
civilized wrote: post #25

There's a critical point I think is getting lost in the shuffle: vaccine immunity may be different from natural immunity, but (1) it does seem to protect against severe cases, (2) precisely because the protection is imperfect, the first infection you get after being vaccinated should train the immune system in a similar way as an unvaccinated infection. So to me, the real question is, what is your immunity like after…

It seems like the article is saying that vaccine immunity is actually more robust that natural immunity though.

Good point, edited to clarify.

Beyond just this study, which doesn't give the whole picture of immunity, I think there is conflicting evidence. Given that vaccine effectiveness seems to be going down in Israel, I think there are legitimate concerns about the robustness of vaccine-based immunity - but the question is always "relative to what?". If it ultimately sets you up similar to or better than natural immunity from an infection (which also wanes, as we get, e.g., colds over and over throughout our lives), that's the best you can hope for.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#34

Post by bryan0 »

Zigurd wrote: post #4

If you are wondering whether you are sufficiently protected by having recovered from COVID, this article provides up to date answers. Get vaccinated. Get a booster if recommended.

Amazing this is getting downvoted when this is absolutely the conclusion of these studies in such a straightforward way. Whether or not you were naturally infected, the vaccines provide another layer of protection which can save lives.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#35

Post by rcxdude »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #19
bananabiscuit wrote: post #3

The spike protein targeting antibodies produced by the vaccine do indeed target a wider range of spike mutations than the spike protein antibodies from previous infection. However, vaccines only target spike protein, while a previous infection will cause your body to produce antibodies for a much larger set of targets on the virus, which in practice leads to a more robust immunity. This is supported by data from Isra…

I was confused about that as well. The article suggests that targeting "other portions of the spike protein" (as immune systems previously infected with COVID do) results in the immune system being _less_ robust against variants of the virus than targeting "places on the RBD" (as immune systems exposed to Moderna's mRNA vaccine do): > Specifically, antibodies elicited by the mRNA vaccine were more focused to the RBD…

I think it's because the other parts of the virus are more likely to change over time, because there's lots of neutral mutations available: changes which don't affect fitness but do affect antibody response. The RBD by contrast is much more constrained: most mutations there result in a virus which can no longer infect cells, so it's much less likely to change (though of course any mutations which increase its effectiveness will be heavily selected for). This I think was one of the main reasons the spike protein was targeted by the mRNA viruses.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#36

Post by Animats »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #17
superkuh wrote: post #15

Intramuscular vaccinations are the most important first step and will keep hospitalization down. But intramuscular vaccination for respiratory viruses does not provide long lasting immunity to the surface mucosa tissues of the upper respiratory tract. The IgG antibodies in body serum do seep into the lower lungs and provide robust protection from serious disease, but they do not prevent infections very long in the no…

Why isn't there more of a push for emergency use of intranasal vaccines? Apparently there are some in the testing phase, but I think if they were given as much resources as the mRNA vaccines were we might have already had an intranasal vaccine in use by now. The Israelis have one in testing but it still sounds like it's a long ways off from being deployed on a large scale. The other advantage of an intransal vaccine…

Here's a good explanation of why.[1] There are several intranasal coronavirus vaccines in test. There's only one approved nasal vaccine now, for anything: FluMist. It's not recommended for people over 50. There have been previous failures. Intranasal vaccines are hard to make work.

Think of the current mRNA vaccines as a minimum viable product. The basic formulation was computed days after the virus was sequenced and they made it to market fast. They do the basic job. Serious side effects are rare. They require two doses and later, boosters. They're a pain to store and ship because of cold requirements. They're hard to manufacture because putting fragile messenger RNA into a liquid carrier envelope requires exotic equipment. They have reduced effectiveness for virus variants.

Expect later-generation products that solve some of those problems.

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/scientists-debate-potent...

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#37

Post by [deleted] »

civilized wrote: post #25

There's a critical point I think is getting lost in the shuffle: vaccine immunity may be different from natural immunity, but (1) it does seem to protect against severe cases, (2) precisely because the protection is imperfect, the first infection you get after being vaccinated should train the immune system in a similar way as an unvaccinated infection. So to me, the real question is, what is your immunity like after…

[deleted]

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#38

Post by mensetmanusman »

ceejayoz wrote: post #28
bananabiscuit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. But given the already high baseline immunity for previously infected people, the messaging for them should be somewhere closer to “you can get the vaccine if you want” rather than “you must get the vaccine otherwise you are causing the pandemic”.

A significant confounding issue is a lot of people think they're "previously infected" but aren't, as the symptoms of COVID and the symptoms of flus and colds overlap, especially in milder cases. "I got it but didn't seek treatment" is impossible to verify, too. My son had a nasty case of pneumonia early in 2020; we thought afterwards it might've been a COVID case. Later antibody testing demonstrated that it wasn't.…

‘ "I got it but didn't seek treatment" is impossible to verify’

‘Later antibody testing demonstrated that it wasn’t.’

I’m confused, can’t we antibody test people who think they had it?

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#40

Post by Clubber »

munk-a wrote: post #27
bananabiscuit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. But given the already high baseline immunity for previously infected people, the messaging for them should be somewhere closer to “you can get the vaccine if you want” rather than “you must get the vaccine otherwise you are causing the pandemic”.

I don't know - I consider getting vaccinated to be a matter of common courtesy to those you're going to be interacting with now. I don't feel like thanking folks for only kicking - and not murdering - the adorable puppy at this point. Those who have been advised not to get vaccinated due to immune issues or other medical reasons I completely get - but everyone else is basically saying "I think preserving my pride by…

>"I think preserving my pride by sticking to my misinformed opinion is more important than preventing harm to all of you."

People who don't get vaccinated generally say it's because they don't trust the government. Probably because the government has proven time again to be untrustworthy. It's not just right wingers like the news is insinuating (another untrustworthy group), but all sides of the political spectrum and all demographics have people who are afraid to get vaccinated. No amount of scolding from you will change their mind, and COVID is probably here to stay, so you should adapt to that truth.

As to my motivations, I'm fully vaccinated.

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