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ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

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Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#191

Post by atq2119 »

bradknowles wrote: post #184
BenoitP wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - He said they're not very affected by the chip shortage. You bet! TSMC/Intel/Samsung must give them for free; also give them the first of each batch they make, as samples to be analyzed.

ASML makes the machines that make the chips. They can do their own runs of whatever chips they need, because they have to fully test the multi-million dollar machines before they disassemble them and ship them out.

That's not how it works. The light source and steppers are important, yes, but there's much more to a fab. Think of all the chemistry, for one thing.

What you claim is basically like saying a robotics company could just build their own trucks, because the truck companies use their robots for the truck factories.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#192

Post by mindslight »

thephyber wrote: post #180
ren_engineer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America pays the price for its short sighted hubris chasing profits and thinking we could turn China into a liberal democracy if we threw enough money at them

This just comes off as a “I can see the problems with that approach from 40 years ago because my hindsight is 20/20” kind of statement. It’s also worth considering that the cost of living in the US has been lowered because China has been the factory for our WalMart / Target / IKEA goods. If we didn’t open up China to the US / WTO markets, the world would be a very different place and that counterfactual is pretty dif…

The cost of living hasn't been lowered, because one of the chief mandates of the Federal Reserve is making sure the cost of living never decreases. Instead, the savings went to a combination of asset holders and make-work jobs. This is one of the major causes of the growing class divide - our manufacturing economy was destroyed, but the people who were put out of work were still expected to get the same income somehow.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#193

Post by mongol »

royjacobs wrote: post #23

Ah yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very successful (NXP is another good example). A lot of research and development is still going on in the area where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to…

What happened with Philips? As a consumer brand I think they have languished. I liked them a lot in the 80s-90s, now I avoid them.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#194

Post by thephyber »

mindslight wrote: post #192
thephyber wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just comes off as a “I can see the problems with that approach from 40 years ago because my hindsight is 20/20” kind of statement. It’s also worth considering that the cost of living in the US has been lowered because China has been the factory for our WalMart / Target / IKEA goods. If we didn’t open up China to the US / WTO markets, the world would be a very different place and that counterfactual is pretty dif…

The cost of living hasn't been lowered, because one of the chief mandates of the Federal Reserve is making sure the cost of living never decreases. Instead, the savings went to a combination of asset holders and make-work jobs. This is one of the major causes of the growing class divide - our manufacturing economy was destroyed, but the people who were put out of work were still expected to get the same income someho…

The cost of living in our timeline is cheaper than the timeline where China was never opened for trading with the West. I never stated it suggested that it caused a negative interest rate in an absolute sense.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#195

Post by wtallis »

jgab wrote: post #98
timwaagh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't very fast at buying those machines. TSMC bought more.

Incorrect ASML sold the first 15 to intel in 2015 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-orders-idUSK...

That article does not say that the first 15 went to Intel. It says that Intel placed an order for 15 in 2015. But by the end of 2017, ASML's cumulative shipments of EUV machines was only 16, and I'm pretty sure TSMC had at least two of those. As of a year ago, TSMC had half of all the EUV machines that have been shipped, and more than half of the EUV production capacity (on account of newer EUV machines having higher throughput).

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#196

Post by DSingularity »

dataflow wrote: post #43
moonbas3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel already has a fab which makes it's own chips. They can print, their problem is the design process on smaller nodes.

I know they have had fabs, but they decided to go with TSMC recently, and that's what I was wondering about. Going with TSMC doesn't mean TSMC does their designs too, does it?

No. TSMC doesn’t design chips. It manufactures them.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#197

Post by DSingularity »

Throwawayaerlei wrote: post #58
moonbas3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel already has a fab which makes it's own chips. They can print, their problem is the design process on smaller nodes.

A bit on how this played out: what they call their first 10nm node which in its third iteration has been named Intel 7 was more aggressive than TSMC's first 7 nm node, and failed for many years to economically produce chips. Both use 193 nm UV lithography, and then TSMC made a more aggressive than Intel's node using some EUV from ASML, and both TSMC nodes worked. Now TSMC is two major nodes ahead with 3 nm risk produ…

Doesn’t this mean the Intel is done? Intel has never designed chips with innovation that matches the quality of AMD, Apple, and Nvidia. I just don’t see how they survive as a fabless.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#198

Post by royjacobs »

mongol wrote: post #193
royjacobs wrote: post #23

Ah yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very successful (NXP is another good example). A lot of research and development is still going on in the area where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to…

What happened with Philips? As a consumer brand I think they have languished. I liked them a lot in the 80s-90s, now I avoid them.

They are focusing on healthcare and personal care products and are doing pretty well there. Their MRI scanners are well regarded, for instance.

Other electronics like televisions are still produced under the Philips name, but that's just TP-Vision making them in China and slapping the Philips name on it.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#199

Post by dataflow »

DSingularity wrote: post #196
dataflow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know they have had fabs, but they decided to go with TSMC recently, and that's what I was wondering about. Going with TSMC doesn't mean TSMC does their designs too, does it?

No. TSMC doesn’t design chips. It manufactures them.

Thanks, that was my understanding too.

Re: ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors

#200

Post by mindslight »

thephyber wrote: post #194
mindslight wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of living hasn't been lowered, because one of the chief mandates of the Federal Reserve is making sure the cost of living never decreases. Instead, the savings went to a combination of asset holders and make-work jobs. This is one of the major causes of the growing class divide - our manufacturing economy was destroyed, but the people who were put out of work were still expected to get the same income someho…

The cost of living in our timeline is cheaper than the timeline where China was never opened for trading with the West. I never stated it suggested that it caused a negative interest rate in an absolute sense.

To some extent, as with any imperfect feedback loop. But not nearly to the degree that is implied by the statement, as most of the savings were eaten up by our own policies.

Also cost of living for who? The now-unemployed swaths of the country certainly didn't see their cost of living go down in terms of hours worked.

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