PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations • Hacker News Board

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#181

Post by o-__-o » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #115

yosito wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the legal implications, but if the duress password unlocks your device and simply deletes a directory or two, and the officer only asked you to unlock your device (without a warrant, by the way), how is that lying?

Despite rumors to the contrary, the police aren’t stupid. They are trained to ask questions in ways that elicit a confession or falsehood. The simplest example is asking “Do you know why I pulled you over?”. Typically, people spontaneously confess to speeding, sometimes they break down and admit that someone is wrapped up in a rug in the trunk. The courts have consistently ruled that customs is different and you can…

>The simplest example is asking “Do you know why I pulled you over?”. Typically, people spontaneously confess to speeding, sometimes they break down and admit that someone is wrapped up in a rug in the trunk.

I was asked this once, after I read a hilarious reddit comment, and found myself in a similar situation. I looked at the cop and said "it's not because of the pot in my trunk is it?". "Step out and open your trunk, sir". He opened the trunk to find a crock pot I had just purchased. I could tell he was flipping through emotions from stifling laughter to being highly annoyed. They eventually let me go and told me to slow down with a half smirk.

I don't recommend doing this, and I have zero plans to ever do it again as it wasn't as simple as stepping out and showing my guilt/joke. I was detained, backup units showed up, even a K9. They didn't search the inside of my car, but they did inspect other items inside the trunk to make sure I wasn't pulling a fast one on them.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#182

Post by BLKNSLVR » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

yosito wrote: post #87

Comments are full of gunpoint scenarios, but I think a far more likely scenario for most HN readers is law enforcement / customs agents asking you to unlock your device during travel or some other random checkpoint so they can scan it. In that case, I doubt the officer would even have a clue about the use of a duress password to selectively and silently delete some private data. I think the biggest risk would be that…

A factory reset phone is a travel-friendly phone. That's what I did last time I traveled... an increasingly depressingly long time ago.

Probably good practice to take a phone from 'scratch' to 'setup' regularly anyway. Like restoring backups.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#183

Post by o-__-o » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

R0b0t1 wrote: post #160

hirundo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn't lying, it's destruction of evidence. 18 U.S. Code 1519: > Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed u…

Not clear. You can argue you were afraid for your life or property in the case you did not expect the agent or courts to react reasonably to the now-concealed information. As well, they would need to prove you concealed or destroyed information. Similar case law exists in this context, but for actions like running from the police.

Do not do this unless you have strict guidance from a lawyer immediately before this happens. One small mistake could open you up to criminal liability and a world of hurt. Better to just plan ahead, bring a burner phone and show the photos to the agent when asked.

IANAL but play one on tv

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#184

Post by drvdevd » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:00 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #113

jeroenhd wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're held under gunpoint, that script that wipes your entire hard drive will only make your day worse. AFAIK if you actually get detained and questioned at airports, your drive will already get imaged before any password is even tried. You may be able to get away with this on a mobile device where this feature isn't generally expected (because who uses Linux on a smartphone in the first place). I always wonder a…

It’s silly nerd porn. The “real” problem is either: (a) You know the authorities want access to your data because , and you travel across a border with it. (b) You possess sensitive information and are not aware of law enforcement’s desire to get it; (c) You’re swept up at random; (d) You’re a criminal, or carry a paper trail of potential illegal activity. Solutions: (a) Means you are stupid. The only way to win is n…

I think the focus on Law Enforcement as the sole source of duress is no longer correct. Just as one example, we now live in an era where any entry point to a corporate network can equal millions or billions in eventual ransom payouts, right? As endpoint security mitigations improve, duress will not just be a silly nerd porn, and will probably not be limited to "high level" people, either.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#185

Post by o-__-o » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #162

yosito wrote: post #87

Comments are full of gunpoint scenarios, but I think a far more likely scenario for most HN readers is law enforcement / customs agents asking you to unlock your device during travel or some other random checkpoint so they can scan it. In that case, I doubt the officer would even have a clue about the use of a duress password to selectively and silently delete some private data. I think the biggest risk would be that…

On linux distros, at least before wayland, it was easy to make your account hidden from the gdm chooser (e.g. by putting it in a different group). Then you could setup a dummy account that doesn't have too much of interest in it. Combined with pam crypto to encrypt your home on login, the result is something that is reasonably private against casual inspection. I used to use this back when I couldn't afford to travel…

  > Forensics agent pulls and mounts hard drive
  > Agent sees /home/hiddenuser
  > Government seeks search warrant for content
  > DA demonstrates recent knowledge/use of /home/hiddenuser
  > Judge holds you in contempt until you provide encryption keys

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#186

Post by bigiain » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #134

sabas123 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And with a little bit more force they beat the password out of me anyway regardless which system I use...

If you are so easily swayed, you would probably not be in an adversarial situation with a government anyway. But this article is about a system for giving up passwords under duress without necessarily compromising all your security, such that your antagonist has no way of knowing or showing that there's another password concealing more important information.

Pretty sure Guantanamo Bay and “enhances interrogation” has shown us that after your antagonist has used the $5 wrench to beat a working password out of you, they then keep on beating you every day for another few weeks just in case there’s more you should have told them.

If “those guys” are your adversary, you were fucked before you started.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#187

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:14 AM UTC

o-__-o wrote: post #183

R0b0t1 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not clear. You can argue you were afraid for your life or property in the case you did not expect the agent or courts to react reasonably to the now-concealed information. As well, they would need to prove you concealed or destroyed information. Similar case law exists in this context, but for actions like running from the police.

Do not do this unless you have strict guidance from a lawyer immediately before this happens. One small mistake could open you up to criminal liability and a world of hurt. Better to just plan ahead, bring a burner phone and show the photos to the agent when asked. IANAL but play one on tv

[deleted]

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#188

Post by o-__-o » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #76

eurasiantiger wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can monitor network connections, they can see the duress connections, too.

You don't need to make it take any network actions, but even if you wanted to do that you could just use TLS. It would easily blend in with all the other services that use TLS as part of their normal operation.

https://serverfault.com/questions/574405/tcpdump-server-hell...

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#189

Post by bigiain » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

EamonnMR wrote: post #57

f1refly wrote: post #8

There's always a big issue with systems like this: Any sophisticated attacker will have an image of the machine he's trying to get into at hand to stop exactly what this pam module is trying to achieve from happening. All this would do is make you appear in a worse light to the deciding judge when it comes to trial or get your other kneecap shattered in a not so civil situation.

If your attacker has a full image of your system why are they bothering with duress?

Because it’s encrypted?

And these days, it’s common for the decryption keys to exist only in a Secure Enclave type thing that makes extracting those keys many orders of magnitude more difficult that asking you for your password while they hit you with a wrench.

Re: PAM Duress – Alternate passwords for panic situations

#190

Post by R0b0t1 » Mon, Aug 23, 2021, 3:21 AM UTC

o-__-o wrote: post #183

R0b0t1 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not clear. You can argue you were afraid for your life or property in the case you did not expect the agent or courts to react reasonably to the now-concealed information. As well, they would need to prove you concealed or destroyed information. Similar case law exists in this context, but for actions like running from the police.

Do not do this unless you have strict guidance from a lawyer immediately before this happens. One small mistake could open you up to criminal liability and a world of hurt. Better to just plan ahead, bring a burner phone and show the photos to the agent when asked. IANAL but play one on tv

Are you insane? Going along with the courts is usually not in your best interests. Hiding the evidence and never going to trial certainly is. If we are talking about information that you definitely need to hide then the penalty for your obstruction of justice, whatever its form, will be a rounding error on your sentence. If it does not definitely need to be hidden then should they find out they are unlikely to charge you.

An attorney will tell you what is legal. An excellent attorney will tell you what you can get away with.

Strong language I know, but prisons are full of innocent people.