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Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

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Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#161

Post by michaelchisari »

kstenerud wrote: post #159
kstenerud wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my point. There are a million different causes I can become a part of. What makes sexism so special that I must pay special attention to it? Every example given so far has been rather obvious to recognize as inappropriate behavior. Like any other inappropriate behavior, I'll deal with it as it comes. But I'm certainly not going to champion the cause, and you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing…

> On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right? This is either: 1. Someone facetiously arguing semantics. 2. Someone who believes that their pet cause trumps all others. Either way, it's a discussion ender.

It's neither, it's an honest question as to why you feel your decisions and actions (or lack thereof) are beyond reproach.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#162

Post by pugnusferreus »

roc wrote: post #96
wisty wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Job stability? Reasonable hours? Promotion prospects, without working like a maniac? Women tend to value those things, often more than men. Also, women in IT are often undervalued. A boss will assume they have no real talent, for some reason. While a guy who shows any ability will often be seen as a genius. People just don't assume that girls are hardcore hackers, while they assume that any guy who talks the talk (an…

> "Job stability? Reasonable hours? Promotion prospects, without working like a maniac?" There are plenty of corporate programming jobs with those attributes.

Still depends on your boss. I used to work for a bank and my head of department dislike people who goes home before 7pm. Our official working hours is 9am - 6pm. I was called into the room once for going home at 6:15pm.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#163

Post by yummyfajitas »

uncr3ative wrote: post #121
rokhayakebe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keyword is here is perhaps . What are these obstacles that you speak off?

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I w…

Women faced this barrier in every traditionally male field - law, medicine, biology, business, etc. It did not prevent women from achieving parity.

Why does this barrier prevent women from entering CS, math and physics only?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#164

Post by cheez »

thricedotted wrote: post #140
Perceval wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk. Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing profe…

Thanks for your post, it was very enlightening.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#165

Post by Perceval »

thricedotted wrote: post #140
Perceval wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk. Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing profe…

I think the narrative you're constructing is inaccurate. Even given that society only just recently realized that women could be equal members of the workforce, I don't think that tech fields were especially male dominated when they started out. In fact, there was an article recently arguing that women used to comprise about 40% of the IT field. Computing used to be seen as somewhat clerical work, so the inclusion of women into it was natural early on—it wasn't a field that women had to fight as hard to get into.

http://blog.fogcreek.com/girls-go-geek-again/

I know several women in their 60s now, friends of my mother, who were early systems analysts for IBM or otherwise involved in the tech field. IT is a field that women have left, not that they have been excluded from.

Second, taking from my mother's experience, she did have to fight her way into a field that was male dominated: graphic design. But that field is no longer dominated by males. Look at graphic design degrees awarded and you can see that women outnumber men now. Is graphic design somehow fundamentally different from IT? Are people in IT inherently more sexist than people in graphic design? They both use computers to do their jobs. But graphic design sees growth in the number of women, while IT sees a decline.

I just don't buy the early socialization argument, because there are just as strong pressures on boys to not be nerds. Simply because there are more male losers doesn't make having a 'clique' of losers an advantage over a loser girl. It's still discouraging whether or not you have a bunch of other negative charisma, zero social skill geeks to be miserable with.

As for your personal anecdote, I don't see how that's unique to tech at all. It sounds just like everyone else's shitty high school experience: you endure shitty fucked up social situations in order to fit in. Would have been no different had you been interested in other things and been in a different clique. If it hadn't been guys saying retarded fucked up shit, it would have been girls saying retarded fucked up shit.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#166

Post by Perceval »

Klonoar wrote: post #139
Perceval wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Popularity and clique mentality tends to be much more of an issue in female circles than with males. I would say that, if one were to assume either sex will get un…

You seem to be placing the blame for girls not going into to tech on other girls. Are girls' peer groups really the ones holding back girl in IT?

I don't see the "nerd phenomenon backing guys being interested in tech." It's a negative stereotype, not a positive one. Negative social stereotypes don't encourage people to take on an identity/vocation. No one sits at home, looking at the stereotype nerds on TV shows saying, "Gosh, I'd like to be a weakling with no style, no charisma, no popularity, no girlfriends, but a really sweet nitrogen cooling system for my computer."

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#167

Post by cheez »

Perceval wrote: post #165
thricedotted wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk. Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing profe…

I think the narrative you're constructing is inaccurate. Even given that society only just recently realized that women could be equal members of the workforce, I don't think that tech fields were especially male dominated when they started out. In fact, there was an article recently arguing that women used to comprise about 40% of the IT field. Computing used to be seen as somewhat clerical work, so the inclusion of…

You're definitely right. I know there are women who got into the field when it was just starting because it was considered clerical.

I was chatting with a school headmistress last weekend and she said that she was into computers but once she had the kids and tried to come back, technology had moved so fast that she had to change careers to education. Somehow, I get the feeling she would have done fine anyway but that's another anecdote. Places with paternity leave probably also have similar problems in high tech fields.

My sister is an excellent IT project manager but I don't think she has ever talked to me about how it was for her as a kid. What I do remember is that she had very few friends and those who she did hang around with were techno geeks.

I think female involvement in graphic design can be neatly explained by society's gentle nudging. It's "creative" work. It's drawing. It's art. Stuff women are "supposed" to be good at.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#168

Post by docgnome »

pugnusferreus wrote: post #162
roc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Job stability? Reasonable hours? Promotion prospects, without working like a maniac?" There are plenty of corporate programming jobs with those attributes.

Still depends on your boss. I used to work for a bank and my head of department dislike people who goes home before 7pm. Our official working hours is 9am - 6pm. I was called into the room once for going home at 6:15pm.

That would be what you call, a terrible job.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#169

Post by thricedotted »

Perceval wrote: post #165
thricedotted wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk. Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing profe…

I think the narrative you're constructing is inaccurate. Even given that society only just recently realized that women could be equal members of the workforce, I don't think that tech fields were especially male dominated when they started out. In fact, there was an article recently arguing that women used to comprise about 40% of the IT field. Computing used to be seen as somewhat clerical work, so the inclusion of…

I disagree with much of what you say, but because I don't think continued debate will get either of us anywhere at this point, I'd like to return to the last point I made, which was: at the end of the day, does it matter whether or not gender binaries and socialization and sexism is the reason there aren't more women in tech? It sure as hell is a reason the women who ARE in tech are dissatisfied. Does it matter that sexism isn't unique to the tech field and therefore can't a barrier to entry, so nothing needs to be done about it? I still hold that it's a barrier to entry, though one that will hopefully be torn at just as it was in other fields (do you think feminists in those communities didn't also have these conversations?), but even if it wasn't, does that mean it's perfectly okay for these attitudes to continue?

The answer is no, so this debate is moot. If we fix the sexism problem and women keep shying away from CS/the tech industry, then a point to you. As for me, I'll just be happy that we all respect each other more from it.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#170

Post by urbanjunkie »

wccrawford wrote: post #94
urbanjunkie wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if I get offended because I see someone shout out at an Indian woman crossing the street "Fuck off back to pakiland you dirty paki", I've made the situation worse? Can you explain what I should do in such a situation, or even better, what would you do?

That's an verbal attack, not just an offensive statement. It's quite a different category than taking a picture with a woman using her boobs as O's in a logo. The woman in the photo obviously wasn't offended. Most other women apparently aren't, either. But for some reason, MEN feel the need to make a big deal out of this situation. If a female blogger were writing to say she was offended by this situation, I'd be pay…

Well, you didn't qualify your original statement.

So, if I hear 3 people making a whole load of racist comments in a bus, but not directed at a specific person, should I ignore it?

I'm Indian by birth, and have lived through a lot of racism. I'm not inferior, and I would never have gone begging for help, but I'd sure have appreciated people intervening at times, even when I wasn't under direct attack.

In the UK, women are typically paid 15% less than men for equivalent jobs. Should I say nothing about this?

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