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Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

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Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#151

Post by thricedotted »

michaelcampbell wrote: post #148
thricedotted wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men. It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they w…

You presume that you are prejudged, and that's bad, and then come out with something like this? > I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life. Seriously?

Yes, because the comment you made that I responded to on the first place struck me as bafflingly insensitive to the point that was being made: that this intimidation is an obstacle in and of itself. If such a situation sounds like an entirely foreign experience to you, I am inclined to believe that you have never found yourself or can imagine yourself in a similar situation, thereby belying a high measure of privilege.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#152

Post by uncr3ative »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #144
uncr3ative wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I w…

rated various women . From my experience women rate other women even more so then we do (so you are different in this manner), and most women I talk to know shit more about sports than I ever will. Awkwardness isn't an obstacle, it's an inconvenience. You are here, so other women can do the same.

Sorry, I obviously wasn’t clear. I never intended to say that I was "embarrassed by my gender" as Michael seemed to believe and I don’t think that the guys in that classroom were participating in offensive sexist behavior (most of the time they weren’t.) And women of course rate other women and men, both sexually and just with stereotypes. However, all that doesn’t change that slight feeling of intrusion, and isolation. I’ve worked in various companies now, and on every team I’ve been on (even teams as large 30 developers) I was the only woman, so it was good practice walking into that classroom in the university. Sometimes, it is still a little lonely.

But here I am coding at a prestigious gaming company, and I agree, a lot of other women could do the same. But, if I wasn’t so determined– if during university I didn’t think that programming starcraft was the definition of cool – I might have decided it wasn’t worth it to go into that room every day. I could have gone to study biology or architecture or psychology and not felt the least bit awkward. And I had girl friends who I would convince that programming is “dead useful” by automating something for them. I would try to convince them they should sign up to some programming class and they would say “nah, too much testosterone.”

I’m really not trying to make men into “villains” or “creeps” with this monolog. In fact, I’m trying to say that before we get to the sexist creeps who assume I can’t code because “you’re a girl” or that I won’t be able to understand what they are talking about because I’m not the type who can do math… Before all that, you have to walk into a room where you are different and alone. I realize that this is what it feels like to be a minority. As a white woman it isn’t something I’m used to feeling, but every time I stepped into a CS classroom I definitely did. Obviously none of these are obstacles that are impossible to overcome, and if women had no choice in the university – I’m sure most of them would be perfectly capable of walking into a room full of guys and getting a degree in CS. Some of them might even enjoy it.

PS thanks thricedotted for explaining the intruder/invisible feeling better

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#153

Post by almightygod »

cheez wrote: post #125
almightygod wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence will most certainly not solve the issue and seems ironically to be a typical male response. Where these men were truly snickering at the fact women were speaking? Correlation does not always mean causation. I don't know what would be snicker-worthy of women speaking. I can think of several reasons why attendees might snicker at a speaker regardless of their sex.

I distinctly heard "snicker snicker woman snicker snicker". I wouldn't have remembered otherwise.

maybe it was "haha, that was a great joke...oh look a woman speaker, awesome...dude i have a similar joke for you"

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#154

Post by kstenerud »

michaelchisari wrote: post #150
kstenerud wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go? Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim? Should I do the same for racists? How about h…

Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you hav…

That's my point. There are a million different causes I can become a part of. What makes sexism so special that I must pay special attention to it?

Every example given so far has been rather obvious to recognize as inappropriate behavior. Like any other inappropriate behavior, I'll deal with it as it comes. But I'm certainly not going to champion the cause, and you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing to do so.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#155

Post by Klonoar »

thricedotted wrote: post #141
Klonoar wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Popularity and clique mentality tends to be much more of an issue in female circles than with males. I would say that, if one were to assume either sex will get un…

Exactly the point I wanted to make, but pithier. Kudos.

Ah, appreciate you saying that. There was a part of me that was hesitant to post it as I'm not a female, but just going on what I see with siblings/friends. Glad to know I'm not totally off base.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#156

Post by rokhayakebe »

uncr3ative wrote: post #152
rokhayakebe wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rated various women . From my experience women rate other women even more so then we do (so you are different in this manner), and most women I talk to know shit more about sports than I ever will. Awkwardness isn't an obstacle, it's an inconvenience. You are here, so other women can do the same.

Sorry, I obviously wasn’t clear. I never intended to say that I was "embarrassed by my gender" as Michael seemed to believe and I don’t think that the guys in that classroom were participating in offensive sexist behavior (most of the time they weren’t.) And women of course rate other women and men, both sexually and just with stereotypes. However, all that doesn’t change that slight feeling of intrusion, and isolati…

I sympathize with you. What needs to be done is help these women be more confident and know they have every right to be where they are.

You think women are minority. Try being Black, from Africa, with an accent, and without a college degree. So believe when I say I feel you.

There are dicks everywhere. However I learned very early that 99% of what's holding people is within themselves and not the rest of the world. That goes for you, me, and every other minority.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#157

Post by alex_c »

jackpirate wrote: post #131
alex_c wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.

I've been spending too much time on Reddit - I used the phrase without a second thought.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#158

Post by michaelchisari »

kstenerud wrote: post #154
michaelchisari wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you hav…

That's my point. There are a million different causes I can become a part of. What makes sexism so special that I must pay special attention to it? Every example given so far has been rather obvious to recognize as inappropriate behavior. Like any other inappropriate behavior, I'll deal with it as it comes. But I'm certainly not going to champion the cause, and you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing…

you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing to do so.

On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#159

Post by kstenerud »

kstenerud wrote: post #154
michaelchisari wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you hav…

That's my point. There are a million different causes I can become a part of. What makes sexism so special that I must pay special attention to it? Every example given so far has been rather obvious to recognize as inappropriate behavior. Like any other inappropriate behavior, I'll deal with it as it comes. But I'm certainly not going to champion the cause, and you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing…

> On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right?

This is either:

1. Someone facetiously arguing semantics.

2. Someone who believes that their pet cause trumps all others.

Either way, it's a discussion ender.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#160

Post by uncr3ative »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #156
uncr3ative wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I obviously wasn’t clear. I never intended to say that I was "embarrassed by my gender" as Michael seemed to believe and I don’t think that the guys in that classroom were participating in offensive sexist behavior (most of the time they weren’t.) And women of course rate other women and men, both sexually and just with stereotypes. However, all that doesn’t change that slight feeling of intrusion, and isolati…

I sympathize with you. What needs to be done is help these women be more confident and know they have every right to be where they are. You think women are minority. Try being Black, from Africa, with an accent, and without a college degree. So believe when I say I feel you. There are dicks everywhere. However I learned very early that 99% of what's holding people is within themselves and not the rest of the world. T…

I agree that instilling confidence that they have a right to be where they are and the ability to learn and be what they want is key.

I don't think women are generally a minority - I only ever feel like one when I start working with new teams at work or classrooms in the university. But being a minority everywhere you go -ugh- that sense of isolation sounds really tough :(

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