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Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

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Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#121

Post by uncr3ative »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #81
solipsist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

The keyword is here is perhaps . What are these obstacles that you speak off?

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I was intruding. And I think if you were to walk into a room with 99 women you would feel awkward as well. From my perspective, as a woman software engineer - there is no "perhaps" about it.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#122

Post by podperson »

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

So I read the original post (well, I skimmed it) and then your response. My first impulse was to decide you're an asshole blah blah, and I start discussing the topic with my wife who is doing grant-funded research on this topic (she's a social psychologist).

So the big obstacles to women in a lot of professions are social norms (like sexist behavior, people refusing to hire you because you're not the kind of person they expect, or career structures that force women to choose between work and having children) and stereotype threat (fear of one's conduct reflecting badly on the group to which one belongs).

To take the real estate agent example: the business may have a lot of sexist jerks (I imagine they're better at pretending not to be though, since they are selling stuff) but there are plenty of good norms (e.g. real estate agents generally have very flexible schedules). And there's no problem with stereotype threat -- women aren't widely considered to be bad at talking to people and selling houses.

TV shows have a huge impact on stereotype threat (and probably norms as well). E.g. there are plenty of shows on TV that show women being successful doctors and lawyers without failing socially. (These are also, to some extent, professions involving helping people and communicating -- which women are stereotypically good at.) The same cannot be said for software development (which isn't portrayed much on TV, and when it is stretches credulity).

I think that there's one thing I can say for certain: the reason sexist jerks are prominent in the software business is that they're allowed to be. There's no question that if more women were in the industry there would be less tolerance of sexist jerks, but getting women into the industry is probably as much a problem of addressing stereotype threat, tokenism, etc. as it is combating norms.

Meanwhile, sexist jerks aren't helping. So call them on it.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#125

Post by cheez »

almightygod wrote: post #113
cheez wrote: post #98

I was at a tech meetup a couple of weeks back and I walked in to see a lot of women. It was really refreshing. Fast-forward a little bit and you can hear guys snickering when the women went up. I don't understand it but I fucking hate it. My sister is great at her job (IT project management) and my daughter loves programming. I can't wait for her to show some guy how to do the job. Some of the women made the best pre…

Violence will most certainly not solve the issue and seems ironically to be a typical male response. Where these men were truly snickering at the fact women were speaking? Correlation does not always mean causation. I don't know what would be snicker-worthy of women speaking. I can think of several reasons why attendees might snicker at a speaker regardless of their sex.

I distinctly heard "snicker snicker woman snicker snicker".

I wouldn't have remembered otherwise.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#126

Post by Perceval »

cheez wrote: post #102
ryandvm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you.

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek.

Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young computer nerds, one wonders why anyone would go into tech. But more boys do and fewer girls do.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#127

Post by aroberge »

On its own, the fact that women represent less than 50% of the people involved in programming is not proof of sexism being worse in IT than in other fields; many other fields show significant gender imbalance.

On its own, the fact that a number of women involved in IT complain publicly via the internet of sexism is not a proof that the situation is worse in IT than in other fields; women in IT are more likely to communicate via the internet than those in other fields.

Yes, there are other factors in play (parents & school counsellors bias, peer pressure, etc.) that influence the choice of a career. But when you put it all together, it is hard to deny that there is a sexist attitude in IT. The fact that there might be a sexist attitude in other fields is not a valid excuse for not doing the right thing and call out those that show a lack of respect towards women in IT. [Yes, the same point could be made about other fields.] To deny that there is a problem is to be part of that problem. Respect from others is not something one should earn, it is something everyone should expect to receive.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#128

Post by chc »

sequoia wrote: post #65
alex_c wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

"circle jerk" eh???? tsk tsk . typical. (just kidding! :p) EDIT: it is a serious issue/question, tho, in my opinion, that bears discussing. So we're "not finding solutions." Does that mean we should a) forget about it, it's unsolvable/not a problem or b) Keep discussing it until we are coming up with solutions? Another important point is context. Is it OK to make a joke about women in the kitchen with your female BFF…

If you are struck with a revelation that hasn't had its rehashes rehashed, write it up and submit that. Please don't post crap articles just because you feel the topic is important. Fighting breast cancer is important, but I wouldn't submit somebody's tweet saying "i oppose breast cancer, cuz i like boobs lol." It does not move the issue forward at all. If anything, spamming an issue makes people wary of it as they perceive somebody has an axe to grind.

To give a positive example, I loved Jolie O'Dell's article on this topic. Rather than the usual samey tirade, it was smart and different and enlightening. I felt like I was in a different place after reading it. If you find an article like that, please submit it. But don't submit articles just because they're on the same topic.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#129

Post by peterwwillis »

michaelchisari wrote: post #100
peterwwillis wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't want to be harmed by association, then they should take an actively anti-sexist stance, and push for that within the industry. You're saying I have to become an outspoken feminist for people to not call me sexist. Not only is that unfair (saying I have to become a part of your movement just so i'm not falsely accused myself, tantamount to blackmail) it's unrealistic. People don't generally win fightin…

Is speaking up when people say or do sexist things really so difficult or odious?

I'm sorry my post was too long to read, but I specifically mentioned speaking up several times. Pushing for change within the industry is different than just speaking up when an asshat makes a sexist comment.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#130

Post by michaelchisari »

peterwwillis wrote: post #129
michaelchisari wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is speaking up when people say or do sexist things really so difficult or odious?

I'm sorry my post was too long to read, but I specifically mentioned speaking up several times. Pushing for change within the industry is different than just speaking up when an asshat makes a sexist comment.

I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating.

If someone is defensive, or even just stays silent, when sexist and alienating behavior occurs, then that person can't complain much if people see them as complicit. If they don't want to be tarred with that brush, then they should speak out against it, and work to make the social group more welcoming.

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