Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#71

Post by wisty » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:35 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #3

I am very curiuos, what will happen when even thinking about woman as sexually attractive will be a crime, let alone any chance of showing her that.

Here's a tip - most laws are reasonable. Besides, no-one is likely to accuse you of harassment unless they actually feel harassed, and want to really screw you over.

Are we talking about a boss frequently asking an employee on a date, despite the power difference, and the employee saying no several times? A co-worker making crude and embarrassing remarks, using sleazy pick-up lines, pulling pranks, and other crap? Or is it like asking someone, "hey, so ... would you like to go on a date sometime? I'm free this Saturday, would you like coffee" once or twice. One of these things is not like the others.

You are allowed to ask a co-worker on a date, in most jurisdictions. Even if you aren't, you are only likely to be accused of anything if someone feels really pissed off at you. You aren't allowed to behave in a way that is making someone feel harassed.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#72

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:36 PM UTC

roc wrote: post #68

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

> "Is that really what differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?" If you're implying that programming just isn't work that most women are interested in, you'll have to more-precisely indicate what it is about programming that puts them off, given that accounting has no such problems. Every accounting departme…

[deleted]

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#73

Post by michaelchisari » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:37 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #61

michaelchisari wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.

The conversation is getting posed like there's this tidal wave of sexism just barreling over the horizon with the word "COMPUTER GEEK" on it. Like in every company there's a huge conspiracy of evil sexist men plotting to objectify and terrorize the lone geek girl who happens to wander into their cube. I'm not saying there are no sexist people in the industry. However, I do think that the level at which the fingers ar…

The conversation is getting posed like there's this tidal wave of sexism

A constant grind of sexism is more dangerous to the well-being of any social group than a tidal wave. That's the problem, nothing alienates more than the constant grind of bullshit.

please consider the harm by association to those of us who are not sexist.

If people don't want to be harmed by association, then they should take an actively anti-sexist stance, and push for that within the industry.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#74

Post by Scriptor » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:37 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #57

Cherian_Abraham wrote: post #46

I met with a Director at a local consulting firm a couple of days ago and while discussing the growing mobile practice at his firm and talking of the team in charge of it, he referred to the lady who held the reins in growing the practice, and how effective she is and how hungry she is, in growing it. And then he made the comment that she being all that, is also "easy on the eyes". I flinched, but held my tongue and…

I don't see this as necessarily a problem. The fact is, men judge how women look and will comment on it when among other men; so do women . There's nothing inherently sexist about saying a woman is good looking. It was probably more his attempt to relate to you on a personal level.

There are different situations where commenting on looks is appropriate and when it isn't.

If the two know each other well as friends then that's just guys commenting on a woman's looks. The line between professional and friendly discussion in blurred anyway. Like you said, women do the same thing when amongst friends.

If they didn't know each other that well then all discussion should stay mostly professional. If a comment like this is made then it either indicates that the Director considers women's looks part of a professional appraising of their abilities or he is awkward at making conversation.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#75

Post by AndrewDucker » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:38 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #57

Cherian_Abraham wrote: post #46

I met with a Director at a local consulting firm a couple of days ago and while discussing the growing mobile practice at his firm and talking of the team in charge of it, he referred to the lady who held the reins in growing the practice, and how effective she is and how hungry she is, in growing it. And then he made the comment that she being all that, is also "easy on the eyes". I flinched, but held my tongue and…

I don't see this as necessarily a problem. The fact is, men judge how women look and will comment on it when among other men; so do women . There's nothing inherently sexist about saying a woman is good looking. It was probably more his attempt to relate to you on a personal level.

Actually, I work with a load of men (and a chunk of women), and this kind of conversation never comes up in the office, because it is understood to be deeply inappropriate for a work environment.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#76

Post by Joeboy » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:39 PM UTC

mootothemax wrote: post #12

cosgroveb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first. Their views are usually pretty reasonable.

Their views are usually pretty reasonable You make it sound as if feminists are some kind of weird cult ;) But your basic point is true: just because a woman is a feminist doesn't mean that she thinks all penetrative sex is rape, such as Dworkin believed.

In the interest of fairness it should probably be pointed out that Dworkin rejected that interpretation of her work.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#77

Post by wisty » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:39 PM UTC

roc wrote: post #68

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

> "Is that really what differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?" If you're implying that programming just isn't work that most women are interested in, you'll have to more-precisely indicate what it is about programming that puts them off, given that accounting has no such problems. Every accounting departme…

Job stability? Reasonable hours? Promotion prospects, without working like a maniac?

Women tend to value those things, often more than men.

Also, women in IT are often undervalued. A boss will assume they have no real talent, for some reason. While a guy who shows any ability will often be seen as a genius. People just don't assume that girls are hardcore hackers, while they assume that any guy who talks the talk (and wears are really bad t-shirt) is. I know I think that way, but I'm aware of it, so I can consciously compensate.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#78

Post by ryandvm » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

solipsist wrote: post #47

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy.

Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle.

Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#79

Post by icebraining » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:42 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #62

icebraining wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was actually started by a man.

...and the point is? a) Many of the leading abolitionists in America and Europe were white and b) if we're in agreeance that the majority of comsci professionals are men, and that comsci professionals make up much of HN, then it's not surprising that this discussion, or any discussion on HN, was initiated by a male.

The discussion wasn't started on HN, but on G+.

But the point isn't that there's no discrimination, just that we're not necessarily having this discussion because "women are fighting to get more respect and representation in computer programming."

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#80

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:42 PM UTC

ICanDoMore wrote: post #44

If you're wondering why a field once roughly equal in its gender balance is now male-dominated, perhaps some real quotes from the hiring manager at this company will shed some light. "Oh, a female applicant!" (Tone: Surprise) "He's male which immediately places him above [the female applicant]" (Tone: Joking... but inappropriately sandwiched between comments relevant to their ability to do the job, imo) Argument ensu…

You could tell the female candidate.