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Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

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Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a problem not faced by any other industry in the world? I have never seen evidence that shows that IT industry people are any more sexist than people in any other field. So someone goes to a conference and there was a slide with something inappropriate on it. That means one asshole was immature and unprofessional enough to publicly shoot himself in the foot. It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of othe…

It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.

The conversation is getting posed like there's this tidal wave of sexism just barreling over the horizon with the word "COMPUTER GEEK" on it. Like in every company there's a huge conspiracy of evil sexist men plotting to objectify and terrorize the lone geek girl who happens to wander into their cube. I'm not saying there are no sexist people in the industry. However, I do think that the level at which the fingers are pointed and this is echoed through the tech blogs is out of proportion with the actual rate of offense. The end result is every man in IT gets a reputation for being sexist because "it's just rampant in that industry." Well I don't believe it.

I don't have figures, or examples, or any way to prove how sexist our industry may be. But neither does anyone else. So before you go around saying "the tech industry is sexist", please consider the harm by association to those of us who are not sexist. You may have seen tons of sexist behavior in your career - I have not. No one person's experience defines an industry.

Also, if there is indeed some secret cult of disgusting pig men in the industry, let's deal with it like fucking adults, OK? First of all we can have the modern-day equivalent of sensitivity training. Have a frank discussion with your teammates about what is and isn't appropriate behavior for the workplace. Remind them that even if there's no women around, you still can't go objectifying or making jokes about them, just like you wouldn't do the same to people about race or religion or sexual orientation.

Have your team agree that whenever someone says something sexist by accident that someone will say something to the guy and remind him that's not appropriate behavior and ask him to apologize. If he doesn't, inform his manager. Pretty simple - this is called holding someone accountable for their actions.

This next part is important, too: don't let women be sexist either. Towards their own sex or others. I know women who will gladly joke around with the guys and make misogynist comments because to them it's funny. Well, this is only reinforcing in the guys that it's OK to make those comments. Stop them and make them apologize too so we can stop this behavior from perpetuating.

In terms of how people perceive "the industry" as sexist, why do you think it happens that in very public places people say very stupid sexist things? My impression is that our industry is not very professional - especially the startup community. There's a very romantic idea that you should just wander into work with shorts, a t-shirt and sandals, living some bohemian genius programmer lifestyle with cubes that look more like playgrounds than work spaces. That's very nice. It also sets up the environment to be one where non-appropriate behavior can easily thrive.

At the last company I worked at it began as a startup and grew into a big company. The attitude of many, many of the employees was still more of joking around than getting work done. It was really annoying, frankly, and I definitely heard a sexist comment or two when women were not around (except for the call center people; they were animals). Fast forward to a more business casual financial IT company and things are a lot different. I've never met a bunch of nicer, non-sexist guys. My theory is it's because the work environment is just relaxed enough that business is on people's minds and acting like a sexist buffoon would not even occur to them. A slightly less educated theory is because we have a very diverse mix of cultural backgrounds (probably 40% indian, 10% asian, 10% russian, the rest a mix of a bunch of other backgrounds) where the typical white american male culture might be more quick to be openly sexist.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are fighting to get more respect and representation in computer programming. That's why we're having this discussion.

Which was actually started by a man.

...and the point is? a) Many of the leading abolitionists in America and Europe were white and b) if we're in agreeance that the majority of comsci professionals are men, and that comsci professionals make up much of HN, then it's not surprising that this discussion, or any discussion on HN, was initiated by a male.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#63
post #58
post #26

I'm glad someone called Tom out on that image he posted. It's minor in the entire scheme of things, but what irritates me are the casual comments and reactions like "That's ok.. haha, very funny!" It's like there's this cognitive dissonance happening: people believe in equality between sexes, and treating women like regular humans with respect... yet we also make casual comments that treat females as just objects. It…

Please provide evidence for your claims about cheating. Secondly there is no issue with treating women with respect in the workplace and have fun with them after.

[deleted]

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.

Very often, people push the hypothesis that women avoid the software industry because of sexist behavior. (This particular article did not, but many similar articles in this genre do.) If IT is no more sexist than any other field (as peterwwillis hypothesized), this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism.

this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism.

No, it wouldn't refute anything. For instance, in the medical field, we've had a hundred years to correct the gender imbalance, and people have fought hard, both in education and in hiring practices, to get it where it is. So, while the medical field may have as many sexist jerks, there have been failsafes put into place to correct for their behavior.

IT has no such procedures. So we can either change our culture to be less sexist than other fields, or we can put in those hiring and education procedures.

And to be honest, I don't consider it much of a reason to pat ourselves on the back if we're less sexist than, say, the financial industry.

This is our house, let's clean it.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#65
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the rug.

Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

"circle jerk" eh???? tsk tsk. typical.

(just kidding! :p)

EDIT: it is a serious issue/question, tho, in my opinion, that bears discussing. So we're "not finding solutions." Does that mean we should a) forget about it, it's unsolvable/not a problem or b) Keep discussing it until we are coming up with solutions?

Another important point is context. Is it OK to make a joke about women in the kitchen with your female BFF? Sure, if she's OK with it and knows you're joking. Is it OK to make the same joke in a public/professional forum? Pretty much always "no." Just because your black friend "thinks your joke is hilarious" doesn't mean you should whip it out at an industry conference.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#66

I skimmed the comments on Tom's boob pic. Most of the women also thought it was funny. Only a few women were loudly critical. Do we solve sexism only when 100% of women are satisfied? That's going to take a while.

You're getting voted down for not going with the group-think. For some reason, some people think that if even 1 women is offended, then it's sexist. They couldn't be more wrong. Anyhow, if all humor that made fun of someone or something were banned, there wouldn't be much left. That's the basis of most of it, and they continue to find it funny to make fun of some things, but not others. Everyone should stop being off…

So, if I get offended because I see someone shout out at an Indian woman crossing the street "Fuck off back to pakiland you dirty paki", I've made the situation worse? Can you explain what I should do in such a situation, or even better, what would you do?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#67
post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

I don't think we need to get to 50% - I would just like it so that women don't feel like they're pushed out - some of it is cultural (it's easier to believe that you can't do something as well as the next person when the messages around you reinforce that this isn't the right field to you) - but some of it is a negative atmosphere created by the sexist jerks. And it's not most, or even many of the guys I've worked wi…

it just takes one or two to complete ruin an environment

People seem to forget this. All it takes it the complacency of most men to let those one or two blowhards create a hostile environment.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#68
post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

> "Is that really what differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?"

If you're implying that programming just isn't work that most women are interested in, you'll have to more-precisely indicate what it is about programming that puts them off, given that accounting has no such problems.

Every accounting department I've ever seen is at least half female and many have a female majority.

Surely there are different skills involved, but many overlap in type [1] and it's a bit of a stretch to imply accounting is any closer to stereotypical female-dominated fields like social work, sales or health-care.

[1] Technical, precise, largely impersonal -- there's even database, script and simple application work

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#69
post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

"We are talking about the same women who fought tooth and nail for things like the right to vote and who do lots of really tough things like raise a family (often alone). Are we to believe that a few sexist programmers scare off these same women?"

Just because we can fight doesn't mean we should have to...

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#70
post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

This article is pretty relevant, whatever side you are on, it's worth a read.

My fundamentalism is better than your fundamentalism http://blog.fawny.org/2010/07/28/stubbornella/

Bear in mind that the author is not a computer scientist, and views narrow-minded geekery with some distaste. But he raises quite a few interesting points. I quote:

>“Underrepresentation” is an insulting concept. Who exactly gets to decide how many women should hold down jobs in a certain field? Who then gets to decide when too few women hold down those jobs? In short, who says women are underrepresented in technology? Who sets the quota? I don’t exactly hear complaints that men are underrepresented in kindergarten teaching and nursing. (Actually, there are men in nursing, but many of them are gay. So are lots of male teachers. Perhaps that explains why this is a topic women’s advocates do not want to discuss.)

>“Merit” is a misnomer. Hence “women[’s] being unable to compete on merit” means nothing. But the airy dismissal of merit as a real issue incurs collateral damage. There isn’t any dispute that typical female brains differ from typical male brains, though the extent of the differences is disputed. Susan Pinker, in The Sexual Paradox, characterizes the differences as significant, while Lise Eliot, in Pink Brain, Blue Brain, argues that within-sex differences dwarf between-sex differences.

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