Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires • Hacker News Board

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#201

Post by _greim_ » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

jayjader wrote: post #139

simonh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is not really to do with equality, it's to do with who runs companies and where investment in the economy comes from, and how everyone's basic needs are met. This would take the ownership of huge swathes of the companies in the world out of the hands of the people who created them and operate them and into the hands of random executives with little or no track record. You're not going to meet an…

> For example, Elon Musk would be forced to sell all but a minuscule sliver of his shares in Tesla, SpaceX, etc and give the proceeds to the tax man. He'd be out on his arse and replaced by an executive hired by whoever bought the shares. It would be the death of Tesla and SpaceX as we know them. The point is that Musk would/should never have gotten to such an oversized amount of control in the first place, and thus…

> The point is that Musk would/should never have gotten to such an oversized amount of control in the first place

There would never have been anything for people to be in control of without Musk. It isn't as if companies like SpaceX or Tesla just spontaneously "occur" from time to time, for whoever's standing nearby to claim as their own.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#202

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #200

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be just the rich. It will be people like me who are upper middle class and see the writing on the wall - who strongly suspect that, when taking wealth from the billionaires didn't give you enough money, you're going to start on the millionaires and then the hundred-thousandaires.

I generally take that as an empty threat for the following reasons: (1) Strongly suspect based on what? There's 0 precedent for the scenario you suggested, but plenty of examples of right-wingers using this idea to scaremonger. (2) Where are you actually going to go? European countries already take higher taxes, and most other countries have higher inequality and lower general standards of living than the US. I don't…

1. There's 0 precedent for taxes that are "only for the rich" being applied to everybody? Seriously? Start with the US income tax.

2. If I understand correctly, this proposal is not an income tax, it is a wealth tax. I know of no European country that has such a thing.

3. See 1.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#203

Post by hellisothers » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #152

bwestergard wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It does not help much to take wealth in terms of equity paper money away from people who know how to invest it efficiently and distribute it." This assumes what needs to be proven. Namely, the degree to which the wealth of billionaries under the status quo regulatory, financial, and tax regime reflects their outsized contributions to welfare. If we make a number of assumptions (e.g. perfect information, perfect comp…

>This assumes what needs to be proven. I think it has been, dramatically, over the last 120 years. Plenty of countries have tried radical appropriation and redistribution, and it failed spectacularly every time. Meanwhile a prominent Marxist country, China, turned to capitalism and within a generation has raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and into urban middle class lives. Meanwhile Cuba, Venezuela…

It’s not like the only alternative is Communism, seems like several Northern European countries are redistributive and don’t have 5 Year Everybody Must Die plans. Also I take the OP’s comments more as an indictment against trickle down economics which has been proven to not to have the claimed impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#204

Post by gremlinsinc » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #197

eightysixfour wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think you hit the nail on the head, I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful, that's why people are calling for it to be taken by the government and redistributed.

> I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful I mean, is it doing anything useful? "Money Invested" is basically a number sitting in a giant key-value store at a brokerage, associated with a stock ticker or some other ownership totem. If I buy 100 shares of Walmart, it's not like Walmart suddenly has an extra $15,000 in their bank account they can s…

Not only that but there's a whole industry around just redistributing these shares, fake jobs for fake valued assets ... it's all just a circus to keep us busy...

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#205

Post by ghostwriter » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

beej71 wrote: post #26

prakhar897 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few more steps and you"ll reach communism.

The wealth always gets redistributed. The only question is when and how.

Before there's something to redistribute, that something needs to be created. Productive people do not need and do not depend on redistribution of wealth, they create it. Crooks and collectivists on the other hand, are only capable of redistributing someone else's wealth.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#206

Post by ghostwriter » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #200

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be just the rich. It will be people like me who are upper middle class and see the writing on the wall - who strongly suspect that, when taking wealth from the billionaires didn't give you enough money, you're going to start on the millionaires and then the hundred-thousandaires.

I generally take that as an empty threat for the following reasons: (1) Strongly suspect based on what? There's 0 precedent for the scenario you suggested, but plenty of examples of right-wingers using this idea to scaremonger. (2) Where are you actually going to go? European countries already take higher taxes, and most other countries have higher inequality and lower general standards of living than the US. I don't…

> (1) Strongly suspect based on what? There's 0 precedent for the scenario you suggested, but plenty of examples of right-wingers using this idea to scaremonger.

You should read history books more often.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#207

Post by ghostwriter » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #202

arrosenberg wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally take that as an empty threat for the following reasons: (1) Strongly suspect based on what? There's 0 precedent for the scenario you suggested, but plenty of examples of right-wingers using this idea to scaremonger. (2) Where are you actually going to go? European countries already take higher taxes, and most other countries have higher inequality and lower general standards of living than the US. I don't…

1. There's 0 precedent for taxes that are "only for the rich" being applied to everybody? Seriously? Start with the US income tax. 2. If I understand correctly, this proposal is not an income tax, it is a wealth tax. I know of no European country that has such a thing. 3. See 1.

> I know of no European country that has such a thing.

Netherlands has a wealth tax system, just for reference. I agree with your 1. point

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#208

Post by ksec » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

hindsightbias wrote: post #37

ksec wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most basic needs are or could be met already. Apart from Housing / Shelter. Which some how no government plans to tackle because the world economy is quite literally built or based on land and property prices. Even talks about UBI completely neglect housing prices. Which I came to the sad conclusion, those that understand housing wont talk about it, those that dont understand will never talk about it.

~700M people live in extreme poverty today ( Homes are a luxury.

We were on course to completely eradicate extreme poverty by 2030 if it wasn't for COVID. But then I would argue even today most of the extreme poverty are partly a results of politics in their region.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#209

Post by ghostwriter » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

david927 wrote: post #120

mostertoaster wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing is if you tried that you’d find less people fed, less people sheltered and less education. I mean the politicians would love this because they understand it is not about owning things but about having control. And then they could control the most. The scary part to me is the amount of people who think this same way as you. If we as humanity just confiscate others wealth, then the world will be b…

We already "confiscate others' wealth." It's called taxation. There's nothing new or wrong with it. > you’d find less people fed, less people sheltered and less education Countries with higher and progressive tax rates have better success in all of these issues.

> We already "confiscate others' wealth." It's called taxation. There's nothing new or wrong with it.

what a "wonderful" principle, in the spirit of "people are already being raped, carry on, there's nothing wrong to see here"

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#210

Post by david927 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #199

david927 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billionaires building toy rockets when others starve is equivalent to "seed coconuts"? That's a terrible straw man. There have long been simple answers but we have been to greedy to look at them. We have been able to eradicate hunger, homelessness and educational poverty for a long time. We have just chosen not to. I find it funny that so many people are terrified of being capped to $20M/person and so few are concern…

The whole coconuts example is a terrible straw man, but I tried to make it at least a little less infantile and look at least slightly like economics. Yes these problems have been solvable for some time, but it’s not billionaires stopping that happening. Their job is creating companies, jobs, products and services not ending poverty. We have the resources in the public purse already. Richard Nixon came very close to…

> [The billionaires] job is creating companies, jobs, products and services not ending poverty

They're being asked to pay their fair share of taxes and instead are using their wealth to find loopholes so that they pay nothing. The US has regressive taxation.

> Too many Marxists on the left...

I'm not sure that there really are any Marxists on the left and that's certainly not what's holding back addressing poverty. Neither of the groups you mentioned have any real political power.

No, the political center has the power, and it's that center which has moved right to be more concerned with protecting wealth than helping the poorest, at least in America. As you said, Richard Nixon considered UBI and Milton Friedmann was quite clear about the need for a negative income tax. That was the right; now that's the radical left. See the problem?

I honestly didn't mean to start a fire with my first statement above. I'm saying that the wealth inequality gap is disastrously large and growing. The wealthiest, much like before the French Revolution, both won't pay taxes and frankly don't care how much poverty exists. And that's unacceptable. We should be talking about that and nothing else.