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Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

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Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#111
I'm no more a fan of billionaires than the next guy, but is this argument not extremely hypocritical:

“Billionaire Jeff Bezos could personally pay for enough vaccines for the whole world, yet he would rather spend his wealth on a thrill ride to space. COVID-19 is turning the gap between rich and poor into an unbridgeable chasm” - millionaires.

Millionaires could personally alleviate so much suffering in the world, yet they would rather buy... Nice houses, cars, and whatever else millionaires buy. You could extrapolate this argument all the way down even to those in objectively unfortunate circumstances. It's turtles all the way down.

These pleas seem motivated more out of virtue signaling than anything else.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax could be such that you are forced to turn over shares in the company to the state. The bigger you get, the more shares you have to give to them, the more influence they have on company decisions. In theory, this would act sort of as a general purpose regulation. Instead of using the force of law to make companies comply, it uses the force of its share votes. Of course, there are a bunch of ways this kind of s…

Generally, a deeply intertwined state and corporations is called by a term that tends to get overused. State ownership of businesses is usually not seen as a good thing.

That's a fair point, which I honestly hadn't quite put together when I wrote that. Still, falls under the "lots could go wrong" category.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#113
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say I start a Saas company and it does really well. Somebody offers to invest at a valuation of 25$ million bucks. By most standards of evaluation net worth- I'm worth $25 million bucks now. who seizes ownership of my company? What's to stop me from offering you $10 bucks for .0001% of your company and making you illegally rich? Taxes on net worth won't work because net worth is abstract

The tax could be such that you are forced to turn over shares in the company to the state. The bigger you get, the more shares you have to give to them, the more influence they have on company decisions. In theory, this would act sort of as a general purpose regulation. Instead of using the force of law to make companies comply, it uses the force of its share votes. Of course, there are a bunch of ways this kind of s…

That sounds hilariously demoralizing. Talk about Pavlovian training in the wrong direction, every time I find a way to boost the value of my company, I have to sign more of it over the government.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#114
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not think society is improving? Over the past 20 years we had the greatest drop of poverty ever seen. Everyday society is improving.

For whom? In the US, we just had four years of people saying their lives were not improving and they had been left behind. So they voted for an administration that would keep things that way. The world is weird.

95% of us aren’t American. And while I would never blame Americans for voting for an American government specifically on the basis of what they promise do for American citizens and without regard for the consequences for the rest of us, the overall effect on the world to which rich Americans can flee has been more up than down.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#115
post #3

Until there's a wealth floor -- until everyone is fed, sheltered and has access to education, there needs to be a wealth cap. We, as a collective humanity, should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million, until the basic needs of others have been met.

The interesting thing is if you tried that you’d find less people fed, less people sheltered and less education.

I mean the politicians would love this because they understand it is not about owning things but about having control. And then they could control the most.

The scary part to me is the amount of people who think this same way as you.

If we as humanity just confiscate others wealth, then the world will be better. Forgetting there has to be those in charge of confiscating it.

No, the problems in our society will not be solved that way. People get a president like trump because they deserved it, and then they got a president like Biden, because the people still haven’t learned and still get what th wet deserve.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most "billionaires" have no where near a billion to tax. This is the problem with net worth, its a made-up number. Most billionaires own companies which are "worth in principle" something to someone. You can only tax that if you force them to sell, and if they can find a buyer. Do that, and the number of billionaires would precipitously drop from a global few thousand, to a few hundred.

Depends... We've seen the panama papers, and all the other ways to avod taxes. And also, compare taxes eg. amazon pays to taxes your local mom-and-pop store pays (percentual)... [0] [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/03/why-amazon-paid-no-federal-i...

might as well ask why that entire system exists in the first place?

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#117
post #3

Until there's a wealth floor -- until everyone is fed, sheltered and has access to education, there needs to be a wealth cap. We, as a collective humanity, should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million, until the basic needs of others have been met.

Imposing a wealth cap like that is a fantastic way to assure that those basic needs will never be met. Over the past two centuries, billions of humans have been lifted out of poverty. Approximately zero percent of that came from the redistribution of existing wealth. All of it came from raising economic productivity. And that vast majority of those productivity gains had foundations built by entrepreneurs seeking gre…

>Over the past two centuries, billions of humans have been lifted out of poverty. Approximately zero percent of that came from the redistribution of existing wealth.

really? you think land reform and mechanization in russia, china, and former colonies had nothing to do with that? wage raises and other victories of labor organizing? welfare and schools and transit and healthcare and other public services? most of the poverty in the world that one can say has been lifted probably comes directly from all those efforts.

it's easy to miss that viewpoint in america, where our wealth came from the homesteading of an entire continent (made available by genocide, pretty redistributive) and then food and manufacturing exports to a bombed-out world (implementing those reforms and supported by intentional redistributive funding from us) which turned around over decades and provided us manufacturing services to supply our consumption. when you don't look more than two steps ahead it looks like pure entrepreneurship. but you have to remember most of humanity doesn't live in the core of this empire, where land was free and consumption markets were far away.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a person is unhappy with $20m they are unlikely to be happy with any amount of money, surely?

Not sure if they’ll be unhappy with their measly $20mm as much as they’ll be unhappy with not being allowed to continue playing the game. Imagine that any successful entrepreneur would be forced to sit on the sidelines after hitting $20mm of net worth.

Guess they'll have to start taking lessons from professional athletes who've had to figure out how to deal with not being able to "continue playing the game" and still be happy.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#119
The problem, as always, is implementation. Millionaires, especially those on the low end of that spectrum, tend to be fairly easy to tax. Their income sources are mostly regular and standard forms of income tax work pretty well.

Billionaires are a very different animal. They have armies of lawyers and financial managers that help them navigate the movement of wealth through the global system to avoid taxation. They avoid recognizing income at all opportunities and strategically use debt to provide for themselves without exposing themselves to tax consequences that would come from getting the money they want to spend. They can traverse the globe looking for the most favorable taxation rates to maximize their wealth.

There’s been a lot of “tax billionaires” and “billionaires shouldn’t exist” rhetoric without much substance to how to actually achieve that goal. Billionaires aren’t just going to say “aww, shucks, guess we’ve got to pay up” when governments decide to up their taxes. They’re going to react in ways that are both hard to predict and harder to stop. Capital flight is a real threat and will require a massive, coordinated effort on the parts of all the nations that comprise the global financial system to curtail. The efforts towards a minimum corporate tax rate are a good start, but that’s only one step of many that are necessary before “tax billionaires” becomes a realistic target.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#120
post #3

Until there's a wealth floor -- until everyone is fed, sheltered and has access to education, there needs to be a wealth cap. We, as a collective humanity, should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million, until the basic needs of others have been met.

The interesting thing is if you tried that you’d find less people fed, less people sheltered and less education. I mean the politicians would love this because they understand it is not about owning things but about having control. And then they could control the most. The scary part to me is the amount of people who think this same way as you. If we as humanity just confiscate others wealth, then the world will be b…

We already "confiscate others' wealth." It's called taxation. There's nothing new or wrong with it.

> you’d find less people fed, less people sheltered and less education

Countries with higher and progressive tax rates have better success in all of these issues.

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